Submitted by EdBlake1986 t3_xun45g in springfieldMO
Comments
Low_Tourist t1_iqwfmpq wrote
That's what a lot of people are doing.
OzarkHiker1977 t1_iqyi8d4 wrote
You are incorrect. ADA does not allow an landlord to ask for proof.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir31f04 wrote
No they don't. See my longer comment
pr1moispfat t1_iqwiyh0 wrote
Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
GuestExisting4639 t1_iqwj38v wrote
They can’t ask for a certification without asking about a disability
PossibleSatisfaction t1_iqxjlrx wrote
Under the ADA, housing providers are permitted to ask only two (2) questions inquiring into the status of an animal:
Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
Note, they aren't allowed to ask about specifics on the disability just if it's because of a disability.
Own-Seaworthiness653 t1_iqy2fpk wrote
This!!! The only correct answer regarding questioning a service animal owner. That is the only proof the owner needs and you cannot question or request further than that.
SkullKidd_13 t1_iqygb53 wrote
Mind explaining why not
nickcash t1_ir2j991 wrote
Because it's illegal
BaroquenLarynx t1_iqwovuw wrote
ESA Registration of America says landlords are well within their rights to ask for proof that your animal is an ESA. However, they are not entitled to ask for more than an ESA Letter, which comes from a medical professional.
blurubi04 t1_iqwsjjh wrote
This is the closest answer. While there are differences between Service Animals and Emotional Support Animals, if the landlord has a no pet or pet deposit policy, you have to have the paperwork. Period. With the paperwork, the landlord has to allow the animal and can’t change a fee or deposit. Also keep in mind that you are responsible for the animal and any damage it does.
Plus in Springfield you have to comply with Pit Bull regulations and vaccines.
EdBlake1986 OP t1_iqwqtsr wrote
But ESA animals are NOT the same as Service Animals covered under the ADA correct?
Low_Tourist t1_iqws587 wrote
Last time I checked, which was pre Covid, ESA was not protected under the same statutes as an actual service animal
Low_Tourist t1_iqwsjql wrote
On pg 7 of the PDF someone else posted -
support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
Low_Tourist t1_iqwspdk wrote
support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.
ETA: Reddit's shitting the bed for me today. FMFL
JaredUmm t1_iqwrwnb wrote
You are correct. If the need for a service animal is not obvious, they can ask if the animal is required due to a disability and what task the animal is trained to perform. The answer to these questions will reveal if it is a “service animal” or a support animal. If it is a support animal they can ask for the doctor’s note that indicates you need a support animal, if it is a service animal trained to perform a specific task, no further documentation is needed.
BaroquenLarynx t1_iqws9z3 wrote
blurubi04 t1_iqxz06p wrote
Yes. ESA’s are not the same as SA’s. I am trying to help, but can’t figure out what you are trying to accomplish. If your landlord or potential landlord doesn’t allow pets or charges a pet deposit… you are allowed by law to have a ESA or a SA. There’s paperwork from your medical provider or therapist that states you need a ESA or A SA. It’s not complicated, it very simple. For the life of me, I can’t locate the problem. BTW I’m very well versed in ADA (1990. & 2010), am an advocate, been on the disabled side of lawsuits, build accessible housing. If you are being honest about your need….there’s no barrier to your accommodation. If you are not, ESA is the way to go. Any Joe can claim to be your therapist and write you a note that you have some obscure ailment.
EdBlake1986 OP t1_iqxzgvc wrote
I'm not the pet owner, I'm the landlord trying not to get sued.
blurubi04 t1_iqy1ago wrote
Sweet, gotcha. If you have fewer than 5 properties, you are basically in the clear. If you have 5 or more, Fair Housing, ADA, DOJ OCR, etc come into play. There’s simple one page form letters that are extremely easy to get for Emotional Support Animals. This is what you will see 95% of the time, some legit, some not. Tenants know it’s an easy way around no pets/ pets deposits. You can’t charge a deposit or ban the animal. Service Animals are treated the same I.e. fair housing, but are a much more stringent program. “Real” Service Animal have very extensive and often expensive training to do specific tasks for the disabled person. No one with a “Real” service animal would have a need to try to buffalo you about it.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir31c96 wrote
An Esa is not the same as a service animal.. there is 2 questions someone can ask..
Q7. What questions can a covered entity's employees ask to determine if a dog is a service animal?
A. In situations where it is not obvious that the dog is a service animal, staff may ask only two specific questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability? and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform? Staff are not allowed to request any documentation for the dog, require that the dog demonstrate its task, or inquire about the nature of the person's disability.
Q17. Does the ADA require that service animals be certified as service animals?
A. No. Covered entities may not require documentation, such as proof that the animal has been certified, trained, or licensed as a service animal, as a condition for entry.
Q35. Do apartments, mobile home parks, and other residential properties have to comply with the ADA?
A. The ADA applies to housing programs administered by state and local governments, such as public housing authorities, and by places of public accommodation, such as public and private universities. In addition, the Fair Housing Act applies to virtually all types of housing, both public and privately-owned, including housing covered by the ADA. Under the Fair Housing Act, housing providers are obligated to permit, as a reasonable accommodation, the use of animals that work, provide assistance, or perform tasks that benefit persons with a disabilities, or provide emotional support to alleviate a symptom or effect of a disability. For information about these Fair Housing Act requirements see HUD’s Notice on Service Animals and Assistance Animals for People with Disabilities in Housing and HUD-funded Programs.
Here ya go from the ADA themselves
dhrisc t1_iqwca0n wrote
Idk, if you are asking for an exception they can probably ask for some sort of proof, just like you can get an accommodation for a disability at work, but HR will want some sort of proof. I would negotiate to provide the proof that reveals the least you want to expose about your health. I work in a public building and we can ask what an animal is trained to do, that is the limit, so a note from a Dr saying this animal is trained to do x for this person might be good.
It should be noted, emotional support is not covered by the ada. So that is more of a no man's land in terms of laws/protections
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir31knn wrote
No they cannot ask for proof only is it a service dog trained for a disability and what is it trained for
jaydub1001 t1_iqwdtsl wrote
Demand? No, but there would be consequences.
I currently work for a property management company. If you have pets we charge a fee (pet rent) and require a deposit. If you have a service animal or ESA, we require proof so we don't charge you. You don't HAVE to show papers, but if you don't have them, you're going to pay the deposit and pet rent.
The law is that landlords need to admit ESAs with papers. They don't need to accept any animal that isn't papered.
Renn_1996 t1_iqwtv0b wrote
There is no official registration for Esa or service animals. Really scary that an employee of a property management Co doesn't know that.
jaydub1001 t1_iqx1nwj wrote
Official like a state ESA registration? No, but documents can be produced.
Renn_1996 t1_iqx2ncv wrote
You mentioned a registration in your comment. That leads people to think that it does exist. There is a difference between documentation and registration and they are not interchangeable. I was providing clarification to your, at a glance, missinforming comment.
jaydub1001 t1_iqx37o7 wrote
My original comment didn't mention registration, only papers. You mentioned registration and I replied that there isn't registration but documents can be produced. Only ESAs need documentation. I don't know how it leads people to think otherwise unless that person is you and in which case you've been corrected.
Renn_1996 t1_iqx3rne wrote
"The law is that landlords need to admit ESAs and registered animals with papers. They don't need to accept any animal that isn't papered."
Direct quote from you babes "registered animals with papers" leads people to belive there is infact a registration and that's how you go about getting documentation. Documentation for ESA comes from a Dr or other medical professional, not a registration.
jaydub1001 t1_iqx3yy9 wrote
Aw shit, my bad. Lemme fix
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir33dy0 wrote
There is no documentation for service animals. Only physician letters for ESA.. Esa and service animals are not the same
[deleted] t1_iqym0f7 wrote
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jaydub1001 t1_iqyx6hu wrote
Oh, I agree with you. Pet deposit should cover any pet damage.
JaredUmm t1_iqwso3f wrote
You are incorrect. If you ask a blind person for any sort of documentation that their dog is a service animal when the need for the service animal is readily apparent, you are at risk of HUD fines.
jaydub1001 t1_iqwtkvs wrote
We make no assumptions about a person's disability and if a person says they have a dog, we charge a fee. If they say they have a service animal, we ask for documents. That's not illegal.
Edit: did some digging. We can't demand to know what the service animal does if it's apparent. We never ask what the disability is but they usually provide that info themselves to go along with the service animal info.
ESAs require documentation by a therapist.
JaredUmm t1_iqwu8vm wrote
It actually is. Not criminally, no, but it is in violation of HUD. A blind person has a right to train a dog themselves. They do not need to comply with your request for some sort of documentation they do not have. If you were nice about the whole thing and complied when they escalated the issue, you may not see any punishment. But if you insisted on your policy, you would be fined if HUD got wind of it.
[deleted] t1_iqwy3w0 wrote
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JaredUmm t1_iqwyl5q wrote
No, all housing except for owner-managed if the owner has less than 4 units.
[deleted] t1_iqx0bxi wrote
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JaredUmm t1_iqx2p76 wrote
https://www.hud.gov/sites/dfiles/PA/documents/HUDAsstAnimalNC1-28-2020.pdf
This is probably the fullest, most up-to-date resource on this subject. It may not answer all your questions, but we are dealing with questions of how HUD understands their objective to punish discrimination, so the the statute doesn’t say “ thou shalt not request documentation from blind people.” It says “don’t discriminate based on disability” and HUD and judges have created guidelines to detail what that means in practice.
Always_0421 t1_iqx3zr6 wrote
I thought this part was interesting:
Performing “work or tasks” means that the dog is trained to take a specific action when needed to assist the person with a disability.
o If the individual identifies at least one action the dog is trained to take which is helpful to the disability other than emotional support, the dog should be considered a service animal and permitted in housing, including public and common use areas. Housing providers should not make further inquiries.
o If no specific work or task is identified, the dog should not be considered a service animal but may be another type of animal for which a reasonable accommodation may be required. Emotional support, comfort, well-being, and companionship are not a specific work or task for purposes of analysis under the ADA.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir331px wrote
And if you do so you can be sued. There is no registry for service animals.
Q35. Do apartments, mobile home parks, and other residential properties have to comply with the ADA?
A. The ADA applies to housing programs administered by state and local governments, such as public housing authorities, and by places of public accommodation, such as public and private universities. In addition, the Fair Housing Act applies to virtually all types of housing, both public and privately-owned, including housing covered by the ADA. Under the Fair Housing Act, housing providers are obligated to permit, as a reasonable accommodation, the use of animals that work, provide assistance, or perform tasks that benefit persons with a disabilities, or provide emotional support to alleviate a symptom or effect of a disability. For information about these Fair Housing Act requirements see HUD’s Notice on Service Animals and Assistance Animals for People with Disabilities in Housing and HUD-funded Programs.
EdBlake1986 OP t1_iqwe3uo wrote
ESAs are different than legit Service animals though right and fall under the ADA and thus different laws right?
jaydub1001 t1_iqwetea wrote
I'm unsure if ADA covers ESAs, but they do include regular service animals. Either way, the company I work for accepts ESA with papers.
If OP is just trying to claim their cat as an ESA without papers, they are in the wrong and if they have papers, they should just show them to the landlord.
Always_0421 t1_iqwce6t wrote
If you're claiming them as a service animal when there is a pet ban, I don't see why they wouldn't be entitled to that.
Ask an attorney, I'd be suprised if the answer is anything but "no".
pr1moispfat t1_iqwidwf wrote
For hotels you are only allowed to ask what service they provide, you can not legally ask for papers. I imagine its the same for labdlord. Its all lined out on ada.gov
FrozenBearMo t1_iqwo1yq wrote
They can’t ask for proof, but even if they could, there’s no proof to be had because there’s no kind of universal service animal license.
They also can’t charge you a pet deposit or pet rent because it’s a service animal, not a pet.
They can only ask you two questions:
- is the dog a service animal required because of a disability
- what work or task has the dog been trained to perform.
That’s it. Print the pamphlet, and send it to them
SubstantialGrass1158 t1_iqzg8wd wrote
Hi there, I’m a service dog handler who has rented before.
ADA applies to places of public accommodation (stores and the like) so you’re going to want to look at FHA/HUD laws regarding service dogs instead. (Though HUD defers to the ADA laws for the definition of a service animal so always good to learn both) I’d have your lawyer walk you through them if you’re not familiar.
Handler must request reasonable accommodation. Landlords with less than 4 properties or renting out a single family home without a broker are not required to accept service dogs. Likewise if having the dog on the property will cause an unfair financial burden upon the landlord (ie your insurance being canceled).
There is no nationally recognized registration for service dogs in the US. Some programs do provide ID cards, however that is just to show that the dog was trained by them. The ADA allows for owners to train their own service dogs as well or hire an trainer not associated with a program to train the dog for them. Any of those online registries are fake, anyone with an internet connection can get on them and buy ‘certification’. The fake online registries do not verify any information to the animals’ training and no joke you can register an inanimate object with them. 🤦🏻♀️🙄
ESA’s are a little different, the handler must present a note to a potential landlord on the office letterhead from a legitimate mental health professional/or Physician who has recommended an animal to help them with their disabilities. The letter must be no older than a year old. ESAs do not require any special training but their presence is no doubt beneficial to their owner’s well being.
You also cannot ask for a pet deposit/pet rent for service dogs or ESAs however you are allowed to charge for property damage just as you would with any other animal.
MordecaiOShea t1_iqx6h0u wrote
The HUD guidance says landlords should not ask for documentation.
Wendypeffy t1_iqyioej wrote
Emotional support animals are not protected by the ADA. Only trained service animals. If you have a disability with a registered service animal then simply provide documents to eliminate any argument or discussion about the legitimacy of your animal and your needs. They don’t need to know about your disability, but providing documents that a service animal will have is sufficient and can’t be refused under the ADA. **I’m NOT saying emotional support animals aren’t legitimate, because I truly believe they are, but unfortunately they are not protected under the ADA.
Repulsive-Judge-7169 t1_irzwu7e wrote
So many loser tenants use emotional support animal status to avoid paying for the damage their animal does to the property... change my mind.
EdBlake1986 OP t1_is04c0g wrote
agreed
Anomander-Raake t1_iqwhzcw wrote
I think the distinction re: ADA like you referenced in a comment would be that the landlord can’t ask you to prove you have a disability/need for the service animal. I’m pretty sure it’s separate circumstances for proving the service animal is what you say it is but could easily be wrong. You could probably get the necessary info over the phone with any local attorney. Best of luck !!
armenia4ever t1_iqyrmgn wrote
I'm not sure how different it is for housing, but in the workplace employees can not only ask what your need for an ADA work place accommodation or leave, but give you forms that your health care providerwould need to fill out.
Even after that they can still refuse your accommodation if it places too much "pressure" on the business needs both financially and in terms of effectiveness. This of course is subjective, but could become a compliance (legal) or liability issue if a company isn't careful.
If you want to know message me. I work in this field, but aren't big on giving details away about my employer in this day and age.
Willing-Sprinkles-17 t1_ir0evnq wrote
A couple of years ago, we found a kitten in really rough shape, and no one could take it. We already had our max pet allotment of two cats, but when we were talking to the apartment manager, they basically said "Didn't your mother-in-law move in a while back? Isn't she ill? Could it be that this kitten is her 'support animal'?" wink wink. Most places are pretty cool about it, within reason. If it's an unusual animal, you might raise some alarms. ADA might be law, but it can also be challenged if it presents an undue hardship on the party petitioning it, such as a landlord.
Renn_1996 t1_iqwvqfv wrote
I belive you need to differentiate whether you are asking about Esa or service animals. Esa: anyone can ask for proof, typically provided by your pcp or a specialist. They are NOT protected by ADA never have been and likely never will as service animals are already protected by ada
Service animals: no official registry, must go through proper training, typically costs $1,000's, they ARE protected by ADA and you are only allowed to ask if they are a service animal and what task(s) they are trained to do.
It sounds like you are talking about an Esa. If so please make sure they actually are. Stating that a pet is a ESA to get past a pet deposit or pet rule for a place only causes issues for those who actually need them and have been suggested to get one by Dr or a professional.
EdBlake1986 OP t1_iqwz0wr wrote
I'm aware ESAs and Service Animals are different and im specifically asking about the landlords legal Latitude in regards to a Service Animal.
houseofwarwick t1_iqy20jp wrote
I think the simple answer here is if you’re this far into a Reddit conversation, it’s time to hire a lawyer and have an animal policy, not a pet policy.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir34ben wrote
Best bet go to the ada website for service animals section. All your answers right there
Renn_1996 t1_iqwze57 wrote
Sorry from your other comments you seemed to not quite understand the specifics. I was also under the impression that anyone with a true service animal would know the laws and what ADA covers as a federal law that applies in all states. Simply attempting to assist with your question.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir346yn wrote
Service Animals can be handler trained and don't need to go through a program. Any breed can be a service animal. My service animal is a dachshund. Yes a weenie dog. He wears his service vest proudly
militarypuzzle t1_iqxcwz3 wrote
If you have to ask that means you are pretending to have a service animal
EdBlake1986 OP t1_iqxd52c wrote
I'm not the one with the animal, I'm the one with the property.
blurubi04 t1_iqwtngj wrote
Can I ask why someone with a legit ADA recognized service animal wouldn’t have documentation for it? It seems OP knows the difference between a SA and an ESA but really really doesn’t want to share with their landlord?
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir33wzj wrote
Be ause there is no service animal registry.. also service animals font have to be trained through a program so there is again no documentation
blurubi04 t1_ir37tm9 wrote
You still need a medical professional to say that you have a physical or mental condition that a service animal can be trained a task to help you with. I know that rubs some people the wrong way but it’s a fact, Jack. Lots of well meaning people for financial or other reasons try to circumvent the process and make it extremely hard for people with legitimate disabilities to get the accommodations the need and rightfully deserve. That’s why I’ve been a little gruff in this post. So many people want a pet and lie to landlords about this stuff. Then the landlords get jaded and people that need ESAs an SAs get a hard time.
Status-Ad-9729 t1_ir3m9r4 wrote
They are just talking about paperwork. That is all that I was addressing. As for me I am permanently disabled in more ways than one. I have a trained service dog. He is amazing. That being said I have a pet as well. I gladly pay the deposit for the pet. I currently am not renting. Although I may downsize soon.
GuestExisting4639 t1_iqwdj94 wrote
A landlord has every right to ask for proof otherwise everybody would claim to have a service animal to get around any kind of pet restrictions