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Newbielurker t1_isjcpir wrote

Reply to comment by bubliksmaz in TIL: Sperms were thought to move by wiggling their tails side-to-side, like eels, for 350 years. But research shows that they roll as they move forward like a spinning top. by vect77

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to argue here.

Are you trying to say that all apes, many living in non-monogamous societies, have the ability to recognise which child is their's, and this is a skill human beings have as well, and we just have things like paternity tests for no reason?

And that in turn, apes are only tribal insomuch as it supports their own individualistic needs to preserve their own bloodline....despite male apes outside of human beings largely not having active roles in raising children beyond mating source

What makes you think animal societies are so individualistic?

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bubliksmaz t1_isjfy41 wrote

Oh come on, don't try and move the goalposts like that. Your original point was that early humans had no concept of fatherhood, no connection between the fact they had sex with a person and the baby that popped out 9 months later.

>Originally, like thousands of years ago, childbirth was just some magical thing women did. There was no real connection to the role fathers made- this only came about really with farming. But once they realised that “hey, my black bull’s calves are all a little black, no matter what the cow looks like. I wonder if that’s the same for humans”

This is patently false. Apes have more complex social structures than what you are implying. Take gorillas for instance, where only the silverback is permitted to mate with the females of the group, and if he is ousted the new leader will kill his infant offspring.

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Newbielurker t1_isjim4g wrote

Did you read the article you just link to me?

" A new silverback leader is likely to kill the infants in the group, sothe nursing females will stop lactating and their reproductive cycleswill restart. Murdering the young of other males thus makes it possible for the new silverback to sire children of his own."

So its not Gorillas recognising which children are their's and which are not at an innate level that human beings don't have - otherwise they would be wiping out children at any age. It's about having the urge to mate as soon as possible, something harder to do when a new mother is nursing a child. It's a more simpler thought of "I want to mate, and have not had the opportunity to mate before"- something your own article states, rather than "I must wipe out the alternative bloodline to preserve my own" which is fairly complex.

Thanks for sharing the article, because it reminds me at something I was hinting with when I mentioned smaller mammals before. I've seen a similar thing with rabbits. A male rabbit gets a female rabbit pregnant, the female gives birth, and then the male will try to kill the babies to get the female rabbit ready to mate again.

Now, if I'm following your line of thinking - that behavior would not make sense. The rabbit has created the next generation of rabbits. It's not trying to get rid of a rival rabbit's bloodline - it's his kids he's killing! Unless of course, the rabbit's desires aren't as complex as "I must preserve my bloodline for future generations" - and more "I want to mate"

Gorillas are a big more complex I recognise, hence their reluctance to kill their own offspring if they do not have the urge to mate currently (And Gorillas fertility periods I believe are more restrained than rabbits) - but I wonder why you think rabbits will kill their own offspring almost immediately to start mating again if, as you said earlier, primitive species like rabbits both are aware of who their offspring are and have a basic evolutionary function of ensuing their survival. (Source for information on rabbits)

And while we're up, here's an article detailing the many barriers preventing animals from linking sex to pregnancy

It even gives another explanation for why silverback gorillas are likely to wipe out infants if not because of recognising that sex leads to pregnancy.

One more interesting piece of reading - key details - Mountain gorilla males, who tend to spend more time babysitting and caring for children than most ape species - have little or no interest in whether the children are their's or not, but all males focus on caring for the children.

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