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1010lala1010lala t1_j7pgp3n wrote

There's an important paragraph tucked in towards the end of the article :

"HUD’s point-in-time count, conducted by shelter workers and advocates nationwide on the same night in January, is widely considered to be an undercount of the actual problem, and is highly dependent on local resources. Martin Hahn, the executive director of the Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness, which spearheads the effort in Vermont each year, said it’s possible that the high rate of sheltered homelessness in Vermont allowed the state to get a more accurate count than other states, contributing to its poor ranking. "

Regardless of where Vermont stands relative to other states, it's clear to me that something should be done to help people without permanent housing. However, if the goal is simply to rank Vermont next to the other states, I think this is a mere snapshot and probably not the final say in how we're doing. I'd like to see the data from before the pandemic and relative trend lines here and elsewhere.

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whaletacochamp t1_j7pl9lj wrote

This is a fatally flawed method and honestly should not even be allowed to be used. The data from it is next to useless.

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gmcg_abidesII t1_j7pkq2g wrote

Thank you. This is a really important point. While nobody should underestimate the seriousness of Vermont's housing problems, the stunning "second worst" ranking in the HUD report is almost certainly an artifact of idiosyncratic data collection. All bar graphs are not created equal.

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lilaprilshowers t1_j7qg4ai wrote

"Once data becomes a metric it no longer functions as data."

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EscapedAlcatraz t1_j7qig4d wrote

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

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lilaprilshowers t1_j7qzirt wrote

I don't think the HUD is deliberately setting out to deceive people. But if Vermont is rigorously counting every person in a shelter, hotel room, and encampment than it's data will be more accurate but appear worse then some one from, say Nebraska, idk, who sends one person out to an encampment and says,"well this seems like 200 people."

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herklederkleferkle t1_j7q6vbc wrote

Can VTers ever just accept that there is something, anything, wrong with the state without trying to distract from the issue? This comment is basically “yeah there’s a homeless problem but look at other states”.

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huskers2468 t1_j7rsra7 wrote

They literally said the opposite in the comment. Literally.

>Regardless of where Vermont stands relative to other states, it's clear to me that something should be done to help people without permanent housing.

Are you just wanting to be upset at someone pointing out that there is a flaw in the data? It is ok to hold both the idea that Vermont needs to correct the issue, and that the data being used could be misrepresenting the actual numbers.

Data integrity matters, it dictates where funds are directed.

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herklederkleferkle t1_j7scja7 wrote

Why not just lead with that? Why put it at the end of the comment like it’s an afterthought?

Example: vermont has a homeless problem, we should deal with it. Also, this data may not be accurate, but still VT has a homeless problem.

They did not literally say the opposite, you dunce. Still, you’re slightly better than the other commentor who thinks forced labor camps are a solution to homelessness.

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huskers2468 t1_j7sh7mc wrote

>Can VTers ever just accept that there is something, anything, wrong with the state without trying to distract from the issue?

>Regardless of where Vermont stands relative to other states, it's clear to me that something should be done to help people without permanent housing

They absolutely, and literally, addressed your complaint. You just don't like the order of their comment. That sounds like a you problem.

Not everything has to be a full throated yell, it's ok to be measured in responses, and critical of studies that deserve it. Even if those studies prove the point you are trying to make.

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cpujockey t1_j7wdeod wrote

> Can VTers ever just accept that there is something, anything, wrong with the state without trying to distract from the issue?

Oh I do. Crime is up, more homeless folk than ever, cost of living is fucked, and most natives are moving out and flatlanders are moving in. Shit is real fucked.

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herklederkleferkle t1_j7wg47p wrote

HUGE bummer too, I loved growing up in VT and the landscape still takes my breath away when I drive home to my parents. Unfortunately I was one of those people who were pushed out. Part of my comment comes from the frustration I feel when talking about VT with friends and family who are still in-state. It feels like they are actively trying to ignore a lot of the major issues VT is experiencing.

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smokeythemechanic t1_j7qpiyr wrote

Yes it's a problem, what's your suggestion on dealing with it in real time? Mines already on this thread.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7ppzye wrote

This is not a statistical error. The Point in Time count runs every January, and if you look at the other states that ranked high in homelessness, it tracks. This is real.

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Kixeliz t1_j7psrxu wrote

It relies on people self-identifying as homeless, with all the stigma and shame that comes with that. It can't count people surfing on couches nor someone who just became homeless the day after the count was done. The people doing these counts admit its a flawed system, you don't need to defend it.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7pv4yn wrote

I'm not defending the count, sorry that was unclear. Not all of what you say is true but my point is not to defend the count, my point is to counter the denial in this thread that the problem isn't real.

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Kixeliz t1_j7pwbhb wrote

The person you're responding to wasn't saying the problem isn't real, seemed to me they were complaining about the shit system we have to try and measure the problem. It's been called a snapshot by others and advocates don't see much value in the count, but it's the only way to get HUD funding so they play along.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7pxazy wrote

It seems that people are shocked that we are ranked so high and want to minimize it.

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Kixeliz t1_j7py7gu wrote

I'm sure there is some of that at play, as well. It's something I see quite a bit in Chittenden County, too. Vermont offers services other states don't which draws people here to use those services. Then the naysayers (conservatives) get to point out how big of a failure the services were because demand was too high and grew the homeless population here. It's easier to say "look at all the problems your services caused" than "if everywhere offered these services, there wouldn't be such a concentration here."

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7pyouo wrote

And the weird part of this is advocates have a perverse incentive to go along and paint it as a local problem rather than a national problem. They will minimize the people coming from out of state, even going so far as to say that people who are homeless in Burlington are from Burlington as opposed to Rutland, for example. Obviously the reason is the pushback against helping outsiders, so it's portrayed as a local issue when it really isn't.

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Kixeliz t1_j7pzf7i wrote

It's easier to sell helping your neighbor down on his luck than a dude from Missouri who just showed up looking for help. People should just be people, but as this sub routinely shows, a good portion of people in this state will only give a shit if they think you're a "real Vermonter."

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7pzwwf wrote

Well, there's a reason for that. Gentrification is making it very difficult for regular people to live here. Obviously that is far from the only factor but when a bunch of people with money show up at the same time it's almost impossible to find housing, people are going to be pissed. That's not a surprise to me. The gentrification is certainly contributing to homelessness, particularly family homelessness, because families typically have access to vouchers and can find housing if it's available. There are other huge problems like Act 250 and NIMBYism but covid era gentrification has hurt Vermont's ability to house its most vulnerable.

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Kixeliz t1_j7q0e5l wrote

That and humans are tribalistic by nature, something we still haven't been able to work around in 2023.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7q10f7 wrote

What I hear is a lot of frustration with VT turning into a version of Aspen. In my opinion, people and politicians ignore that frustration at their peril.

I think rich people moving here to work from home is creating a boring, stuffy, homogenous VT that is becoming a difficult, terrible place to live. On the flip side of that, if someone wants to move here from Ohio to be a teacher, or work in a local business, that's great. Please come. For me it's not about tribalism, it's about VT being a place for more than one group of people.

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1010lala1010lala t1_j7q6out wrote

Thanks for the response. The article didn't include info about past years, so it wasn't clear to me if it was an anomaly or not. And if it was a significant difference from before the pandemic then I'd suggest housing the homeless is a really great way to keep track of the problem .

I also want to make it clear that I'm not trying to minimize the scope of the problem. Even if Vermont were 43rd instead of 3rd, 2000 people homeless is 2000 too many.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7qerjy wrote

Yeah, apologies. Rereading some of the comments, some people who are saying inaccurate are saying it's an under count. No argument on that.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7pjryv wrote

Trying to look at this issue on a local level is fairly pointless. It is a national crisis. Homeless people are migratory. I'm sure there were plenty of folks who hopped on a bus and headed south for the winter, or west to California. It's what they do, and then they usually try to get back to their "local netwrok" when they can.

We also know there are plenty of folks from neighboring states who have landed in hotel rooms here because they couldn't get help where they were (to be clear, I am personally very ok with this).

Taking the count in January is actually fairly idiotic, imo. This is useless data that serves no purpose other than taking a snapshot of January. They need to do it again in the summer and get people out to the campsites and other places folks make their homes. Then we could compare those numbers and get a better idea of the actual issue here, but only doing a count in the dead of winter is silly.

Again, the most important point is that this is a national issue and we need to discuss it and address it as such.

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Necessary_Cat_4801 t1_j7pq2ro wrote

Unsheltered people are counted in January, campsites are visited.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7pqath wrote

That doesn’t change the fact that most homeless folks are migratory and hop a bus to warmer places for the winter. Doing the count only in January and making any conclusions from it is very shortsighted.

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Stevo2979 t1_j7q3r4h wrote

The homeless population isn’t as migratory as you seem to believe. In my experience as someone who had been homeless and also worked for a nonprofit organization to help homeless people in central Vermont. Many would stay because they wanted to be close to there family, Stay close to where they work, or lack the means in order to move.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7q6hqb wrote

Oh absolutely. Most folks do try to stay closer to where they may have family, friends, any sort of network for as long as possible, and often come back if they need to go somewhere warmer for the winter. People in general tend to also prefer to be in places they are familiar with.

That said, about half of the homeless population in our country lives in 3 places, California, New York, and Florida. The majority of those folks are not from those places originally. They migrate there because of the weather or available help/community.

While it is true that most folks TRY to stay where they have a network, they also tend to eventually burn bridges and use up available resources and they wind up moving on. Others, like yourself, stay put and eventually lift themselves out of it. I also think a lot of folks underestimate the way homeless folks utilize trains and busses to get around the country. I even met a dude from Bennington while doing outreach in Santa Monica on that cliff where everyone camps. He told me his family stopped offering any help (shelter) after a while so he made his way out there to embrace living the rest of his days on the beach (this is what he told me).

If you want to drop a link to the org your work with in central VT, I would love to donate and volunteer myself. I have done homeless outreach in NY, FL, and Los Angeles and would love to get involved here.

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Stevo2979 t1_j7qdzi1 wrote

Funny enough, I don't live in Vermont nor work with that organization anymore because of the reasons you stated above and I even took a train to were I currently live.

Anyway if you do want to help here's their web page; https://www.anotherwayvt.org/

Their main objective is to provide support for those whom have suffered from mental illness but they also help those who are homeless since it is such a huge problem and there's a bit of a correlation between the two.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7qfdzn wrote

Huge correlation. Thanks for the link! I’ll check them out and go from there. Access to mental healthcare is a major issue and something I am passionate about as I have many loved ones who have struggled / are struggling with getting care in VT.

I wish you well wherever you landed!

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Stevo2979 t1_j7qik6v wrote

Thank you. I wish the same for you as well and your love ones. :)

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ceiffhikare t1_j7q60o1 wrote

> this is a national issue and we need to discuss it and address it as such.

Well yes and no. You are right in that it is a nation-wide problem and needs national scale resources to get solved. Id prob agree that some work at and reform at the federal level desperately needs to happen too. The solutions are going to have to come from as close to the local level as possible though imo.

I have to wonder what happened to those building trades hs projects of the 90's and before? Did those programs stop? I hate to even mention it because it reeks of exploitation but has anyone considered bringing back the 'poor farms' of yester-year? These are solutions that can only come from local action backed by federal funding.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7q6yi0 wrote

I'm not familiar with the program you mention from the 90s, but will check it out.

Otherwise, we seem to be on the same page. Yes, we need federal funding/support but of course the action part of it happens locally.

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ceiffhikare t1_j7qln8e wrote

There used to be yearly or bi yearly high school building trades projects that would use hs students to build a house complete from start to finish. Granted these programs were not present in every school district i went to but many had them. idk the details of those programs in particular but friends and acquaintances were in them and it always struck me even back then that this should be widespread to combat homelessness. We could do a half dozen tiny homes in every county seat for the cost of a few dozen hotel vouchers.

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TheTowerBard t1_j7qt9df wrote

Makes a whole lot of sense to me. Also teaches good home repair skills, I’d imagine. Something we all could hopefully use.

One major hurdle I see though is where to build. Towns, counties, states, etc will have to buy the land this happens on I’d imagine. Not too many people are donating land to help others these days.

Though, building tiny homes on trailers might fix this as they can be moved when agreements about the land they are on shifts.

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