To me, sky wizard schools shouldn't get any government help, nor should any school that is "independent."

Why?

So do what then build new high schools across a good portion of the NEK? Seize the independents by imminent domain and essentially nationalize them?

Becks actual point or so it seems is not arguing for religion just pointing out the collateral damage to thousands of other students in the state. Is it really worth it over a handful of religious students?

It's not. The NEK is dead enough. People in here talking about defunding two of it's biggest employers and leaving three counties without a highschool.

Even our own Agency of Ed is against it.

"That proposal drew swift opposition from independent schools and school choice advocates. The Vermont Agency of Education also opposed it, Education Secretary Dan French said earlier this week.

“Unlike public schools, independent schools exist for a variety of purposes. Regulating them in a manner comparable to public schools would be inappropriate,” French wrote in testimony submitted to the Senate Committee on Education.

The proposed legislation, he said, “would significantly alter the independent school landscape in Vermont.”

https://vtdigger.org/2023/03/03/house-lawmakers-weigh-softer-approach-to-independent-schools/

Religious institutions should get tax payer funding when they pay property taxes like the rest of us do, until then let the book club pay for the indoctrination centers not the tax payers.

I have no valid arguments. This was more to get an understanding of this article. It was a bit confusing to me. I know he works at the academy and was reading from the view point he wants to protect them.

I don't think we should build highschools across the nek. I don't think religious or private schools should get my money either. I would also like a better choice, I am truly not well enough informed to give one.

Period!

This is a very good philosophical stance to have but the reality of the situation is much messier than that. There has been a very effective status quo in this state for a century where public funding of independent schools played a huge role. The Supreme Court has upended the status quo and there are only bad options left. The students of the NEK receive a better education than rural students in almost any other situation, far better than most public education, and without public funding there is going to be a very real drop in educational outcomes for students in these areas. Are you in favor of that?

No, I am not educated enough about the situation. I believe that was obvious in my response.

Well yeah, Dan French is a Republican political appointee, his view on independent schools is likely part of why he was hired in the first place

Got anything other than he's republican appointee. I did not and dont know much of anything about him but I never knew this to be a pressing issue until recently nor ever heard a peep outa the governor about his issue either. But if you have something that shows thats why he was hired I would be open to it.

Well both the Academy and LI are private. You would need to build at least two maybe more public high schools to replace them if no public money flowed to private schools. That's just the way it's always been out here. Essex county just east of the Academy has no high schools at all and many other towns in Caledonia Co rely on those two mainly but also a network of many smaller schools.

Schools should not be allowed to discriminate if they receive public funds. The new draft bill that came out of the house committee on education Friday addresses that while preserving school choice in communities that rely on it. S.66 and H.258 were attempts to use Carson v Makin as a pretense to eliminate independent schools- even the four town academies would lose the designation of approved independent schools in those bills.

You have have no idea how limited school choice is in many areas of the state and if not for private and sometimes "religious" institutions families would be put in money harder positions for educating their children.

It's this lack of knowledge of how this state has sustained quality education up for ALL residents is why for the last 15 or so years the quality of education in the state has dropped so dramatically that the income tax isn't the only reason NH is chosen far more often than Vermont for new residents and remote workers.

You're a pot calling the kettle black when it comes to indoctrination by the tone of your commenting.

The cult of personality has arrived, and they don't like religious institutions. PERIOD.

This thread is just a list of reasons to homeschool.

If you think public schools are void of discimination you must of been homeschooled and even then I don't believe you.

There has already been a dramatic drop in education quality as we overload public school because new residence would rather give their children a half-assed education and a long commute at an overcrowded public school rather than sending them to a "religious institutions for indoctrination". Actual quote from this posts comment section.

I never knew anyone who went to MSJ and came out a religious fanatic.

If you're not educated on the subject and have no worthwhile take or input on the subject why even share at all and if your point was to become more educated why be passive agressive in your reply to this users informative comment even though it contradicts the click bait narrative you were obviously going for here by sharing anything from that glorified tabloid thedigger. The name of the publication alone should make you angry with how similar is sounds to other words.

I hate you can't read subtext. I was not being sarcastic. Mostly for the arguments. I feel people don't usually have their mind changed by reddit, I do not know shit about this. Also, should the word punt or trucker bother me? Thank you for taking the time to talk shit. For your reference, this time I'm being sarcastic.

Book club member? Sorry but not sorry if i kicked your god.

I know all too well how graduating to HS in the NEK means that the parents now gotta scramble to transport the kids themselves. Cal. Co would be better served with a regional public HS.

>You're a pot calling the kettle black when it comes to indoctrination by the tone of your commenting.

So i will make it very clear for you so there is no misunderstanding: I am of the mind that all religious texts should be recycled into toilet paper and every church, mosque, and other religious buildings should be turned into homeless shelters.

You heard what the Governor wants when Dan French opened his mouth. That’s what political appointees do.

But yeah, Scott is on the record supporting school choice.

https://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/story/news/politics/2016/11/02/scott-education-board-over-private-schools/93130596/

I obviously wasn’t in the room when Scott selected French, but I do know that disagreement over this issue was a significant reason why French’s predecessor left, so it kind of follows that he was hired at least partially because of this

I will go ahead and reaffirm my previous comment. Just to be clear.

The best part is you think only someone who is religious can think your ideas are stupid...Your next idea is just as dumb.

I hate when people think that they can imply "subtext" to deflect from their stupid takes on things they don't understand when they're clickbaiting.

I don't see the point of the linked article really. Why is school choice a republican thing? Even Scott's opponent Sue Minter was against the proposed rules per the article. Seems the so called mouthpiece of the governor was aligned with the dems as well. After all and ya Ill go way out on a limb and assume that at the time dems had control of all but the governorship they failed to advance any of this. So again I don't think that paints the guy in the bad light you are implying.

I never knew anyone that went to Liberty college and came out religious, must not be religious.

Wait!, frig, I don’t know anyone that went to liberty college.

Sounds like you're the type that would rail against separation of church and state.

You need a break from reddit.

They're not void of it, but it's a lot easier to hold them responsible for it.

Are the private/religious schools required to enroll everyone, like public schools? Or can they refuse special ed and others?

I suggest reading both official party platforms if you don’t think school choice is a partisan issue in Vermont

I also never called anyone a bad guy. I said Dan French’s job is to advance Republican education policy. That’s a fact.

And yes, the Democrats did do something about it back then. Guess what’s causing all this hullabaloo? The Supreme Court effectively overturning what the Democrats did

Right now they can exclude anyone they choose

I don't think public dollars should go to organizations that don't allow public scrutiny.

Then they should get zero tax dollars.

No, it's not. It's like you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Have you ever seen what it's like to hold a teacher responsible for wrongdoing with modern teacher's unions? Unacceptable behavior gets you the year off with full pay.

Climb down off the pedastle, sit down on a blanket under a tree, and actually think for yourself.

Elaborate, please.

It's actually a University and I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make, but it doesn't corollate with any of my statement. Would you care to clarify?

Hello, SJA graduate here. Am I missing something recent? IIRC what public schools call “homeroom” some of us called “chapel”—that’s where the religious content ends, the name of an assembly building. Are you aware of any religious iconography, curriculum, anything?

Oh you're one of those boot lickers.

Only to the uninitiated members of a cohesive and accepting society would it sounds that way, but do explain how my stance would constitute that assessment.

Bootlickers? Do elaborate on how you came to that assessment in your oh so eloquent and informative reply to my comment.

I agree, and I went to one of these institutions by virtue of living in a town that had school choice. They never (and I say this as a lifelong devoted atheist) EVER shoved "religious indoctrination" down our throats in any way. In fact, at graduation they had a baccalaureate ceremony where students representing all faiths were welcome to speak. My year we had a Buddhist, a Jew, a Christian, a Wiccan, and an Atheist speak, among one or two others who I can't remember. The quality of education was far above and beyond what I could have received at any other fully public or union high school.

Fellow SJA alumn and lifelong atheist. No one ever shoved the bible down our throats, or the Quran, or the Torah, or the Communist Manifesto for that matter. The faculty made it a point to welcome and encourage the sharing of diverse religious and nonreligious worldviews, often using the daily morning gathering (AKA "Chapel") as the forum for it. We had a kid lead us all in a Buddhist meditation for 15 minutes one morning, a good friend of mine gave a talk on Paganism and Wicca at another. Other times, it was literally just going over sports results, the schedule for the day, advertising for upcoming club, educational, or extracurricular events.

Just here to say I’m friends with his kid. Never met him tho.

> one of those boot lickers

Also a sea lion

Came here to say this, went to the Academy as well and there wasn't an ounce of religious anything. There are so many diverse students there as well, you get a ton of different insights into cultures.

Hell I had swordfish at lunch one day from the international line. As a high schooler in the NEK.

So i will start out by saying i went to SJA. I didnt really do well there in whatever kind of environment they are trying to cultivate there. Then i had a kid years later go there and it was just as bad of an experience. Everything from the expense of transporting her ( a couple thousand more a year in fuel costs ) to changing my schedule around to shift work so i could pick her up and drop her off.

SJA didnt offer me or mine much that wasnt more expense and trouble than it was worth, i loathe that my property taxes are going to a non public school.

We need a public option for high school that provides busing. My problem with SJA is that its a private not a public school.

Nah man, i think religious folks are otherwise intelligent people who have fallen victim to a delusional scam. I'm not sure where you got your idea's of what i think from but i cant see it from the convo here.

It’s pedestal

If that’s an advertisement for the religious education you’re promoting then whoops

Except St J provided busing for several of my friends and classmates who lived as far away as Peacham and Sheffield. As to it being private vs. public, what specifically about it being private makes it bad? If it comes down to cost and you live in a sender town, that's what your property taxes effectively go towards. If it comes down to oversight issues then what specifically are they doing in the education of our children that you think is so wrong?

They stopped busing the students between when i went and my kid was there..idk when exactly. That was a helluva burden on a single factory worker and threw my life into chaos. Public dollars belong in public schools period full stop. The patrons of these private schools want them to remain in business then they can pay out of pocket for them, and the parish's can pay for the religious ones from tithes.

Ironic that the public schools ARE indoctrination centers paid for by taxes.

Well, regardless of the busing thing (I graduated in 2015) St Johnsbury is largely funded by private benefactors. Even though the towns are paying a tuition to send their children there, it's not much more than they'd otherwise spend on a public regional high school (supposing one were to spontaneously appear at no cost) and the education received and opportunities to explore different subjects, the arts (performing and visual), career and technical training, extracurricular activities are miles ahead of what a public school can provide. The majority of tuition funding for St J comes from the Dorm students. On top of that, encouraging benefactors from all over the country to donate only adds to the institution's resource pool, which it then uses to improve the student experience.

Yelling absolutes like "public dollars belong in public schools" means nothing if you can't back it up with a good reason to change the current status quo. Yes on principle it's an easy logical conclusion to come to, but in practice it might not be the best solution for a lot of rural areas in our state. A large part of why young families even move to the NEK is because they have access to schools like STJ and LI that they otherwise wouldn't find anywhere else in the country. It's part of what makes our state unique and, if I'm gonna be brutally honest, it's one of few things keeping our state afloat in its undying quest to attract and keep young people and families. You abolish public funding to STJ tomorrow and all of a sudden an entire county has to recreate that with a fraction of the funds? People will leave in droves. I get that a lot of people in this part of the state are willing to cut their nose off to spite their face in the name of "sticking it to the flatlanders" but not me.

How so? I mean ig if you are a member of a religion then it may seem that way given how those world views are at least (edit: at the ) fundamental level incompatible with modern life and require a salad bar pick an choose approach as to what rules of the club can be bent or broken.

>St Johnsbury is largely funded by private benefactors.

Great then they dont need the funding from the public coffers!

This is exceptionally poorly written. After reading the whole thing, I'm not even 100% sure what the argument is, honestly. I get that he disagrees with the current proposals, and he has problems with the alliance, but there's really not a consistent line of reasoning.

The first four paragraphs are entirely in the passive voice (e.g. "action has been taken"), but they're also the only coherent part of the commentary, because each paragraph acknowledges and builds on the preceding one. As soon as he moves on from giving background to making his point, he just doesn't ever actually make an argument.

From the structure, after the introductory paragraphs, in which he lays out the background, he starts his argument with this paragraph:

>From my vantage point, the alliance seems to be having a meandering negotiation with themselves that has ignited nearly 100 communities offering public tuition in some or all grades.

Ignited what? Discussion? What is the meandering negotiation? How does a meandering negotiation ignite towns? I genuinely have no clue what that paragraph is supposed to mean, but it's also clearly intended to be a thesis statement. I was hoping he'd explain later, but he does not, because every single paragraph from now on is independent of every other one. He never develops a single argument.

He also asks questions he clearly intends to be rhetorical, but which really aren't. Example:

>Independent schools educate about 4,000 publicly tuitioned students and generally report that they are doing well. Public schools educate 81,000 students and often report that they are struggling to emerge out of the pandemic. Why is a group that represents schools that educate 81,000 students focused on schools they don’t represent that educate 4,000 students?

... because those are private schools refusing public funds, and that's what we're discussing. I think he's trying to point out it's absurd, but it's not at all obvious to me why this would be absurd. Is it supposed to be absurd because of the numbers? Anybody who has ever made rules, or done anything really, knows that edge cases are often the bulk of the work, i.e. the last 10% is 90% of the work.

If you think he'll explain in the next paragraph, you are of course mistaken. The next paragraph, like every other paragraph, just starts a new, also instantly aborted argument:

> On principle, the alliance and its supporters share their perspective as a humble request to follow a few simple rules which independent schools are already following or soon will be, while simultaneously proposing to restrict public tuition to all but four independent schools, if they are designated.

Why? At least link me to something. As written, it's just an unsupported statement. It's maybe the beginning of an argument, but he offers no supporting points, nor does it do anything to support the previous paragraph, which talks about the 81000 students vs the 4000 students. It's totally unrelated. What are the rules? Even the structure doesn't work. He sets up "a humble request to follow a few simple rules" as being in tension with "proposing to restrict public tuition." Those seem like they're not in tension at all to me. It seems perfectly normal that the people who make the rules also get to decide the funding. If they are in tension, explain it!

Here's the conclusion (typo and all):

>To prevent a handful of religious schools in towns that don’t even offer public tuitioning from receiving public tuition, the alliance is pursuing a sledgehammer approach instead of searching for a credible surgical solution. It is concerning that theaAlliance has a considerable amount of power over Vermont schools and students, yet seemingly no capacity or understanding to recommend solutions that help all Vermont students.

Whatever, I make typos all the time. But also, what is the sledge hammer approach? The proposed bills? He also mixes metaphors -- are they pursuing a meandering negotiation, or are they sledge hammering? Those seem pretty different. He never explains why the alliance has too much power, nor does he really develop any arguments about how it doesn't understand the needs of students.

This is alarming shit from a legislator, whose literal job is to write words enforced by armed agents of the state. Especially when you consider he is writing about education policy, of all things.

edit: Holy shit I just learned he's a legislator and a teacher at St. Johnsbury academy, which will presumably be affected by this. That should be disclosed at the top. That's very important context in evaluating this. But also, this guy teaches kids to write?! I really hope this was an aberration, and not representative of his ability to write and communicate effectively.

Those communities are still burning to this day.

Dude is a teacher too or was at one of those four private schools.

This is what I was looking for. I really didn't understand if it was me or if i stopped understanding things.

At least literal arson would support his conclusion that they have too much power.

It's definitely not you! There is no coherent point made anywhere in that piece.

So these institutions should just take our kids pro bono? That's just not how it works. It's ultimately a business transaction between the public and private sector that is mutually beneficial for everyone. The school gets a larger student body to work with, and therefore more opportunities for advanced learning, extracurricular activities and clubs, additional curricula that aren't feasible with smaller student bodies; the public gets access to some of the best secondary education in the country without having to deal with the hassle of running its own school district, funding its own building and grounds maintenance, hiring and oversight, etc. The money the towns are spending on their education is the same money that they'd be spending otherwise to send them to some regional high school that they'd have to continually assess repairs and improvements for, and wouldn't even be guaranteed to provide a better education or growth outcomes for its students than the current model. It's just not a risk worth taking.

You really could state your case a lot better without conflating religious, independent, and private, as this jumbled thread shows. It sounds like what has happened over the past 5 years is not unique to the NEK or anywhere in VT. And really it has nothing to do with whether you or your child did well there.

As Americans we are spoiled rotten about a number of things rigged by the government (on a bipartisan basis!) to be cheap for us. Fuel and food costs are among them, and those have seen occasional spikes over the past 50 years (sometimes at the expense of getting re-elected as President!). And COVID times have brought us a new (horrible!) era of resetting our appreciation of labor logistics as consumers. “No one WanTS to WORk ANymORE” = workers know their worth. Are the days of minimum wage drivers and child care workers over? You tell me. Add to that our state’s housing crisis and all the other things affecting us and we have many problems to work through, 0 interest in building a new public high school in St. J for what!? Everyone wants a school right outside their door. Why don’t you move to where the school is if it will save you all this money?

>So these institutions should just take our kids pro bono?

No, the towns need to get together and build a regional HS for the needs of the public. IDC how bad/good the private schools are, public tax dollars should not be used to fund private and religious schools.

I mean, we’re talking what a 200-acre campus, 8-10 years from RFP, and tens of millions right? Show me the money

No one cares and it's not. Whoops.

Oh but it is ;)

Not sure why you are confused about something so simple as no public funding for non public schools..unless you have a vested or ideological interest in these places existing. The NEK needs a public option to the existing facilities.

As for the rest..? smh talk about me going off on jumbled rants,lol

Edit: im done with the thread so you all with the last word disease can get your digs in,lol. have a great day people!

I’d like to agree with you completely (since I found the piece hard to follow as well) but Hartman’s Law means your launch should have been scrubbed. [reason]

Also for someone who seems like they should appreciate nuance the responsibility VTDigger has to their pieces labeled OPINION elude you. Put simply they converted their “Letters to the Editor” feature/tradition to rotating/chosen Opinion pieces some years ago. While the legislative connection is front and center and his employer is unstated, it is certainly public knowledge. Unless he is a paid spokesperson it’s not really relevant tho. Or rather I’m comfortable leaving the relevance as an exercise to the reader. There’s not really any “AHA!” moment here. But I’m pretty sure VTDigger employees would be happy to spell it out more, as the times I have reached them for editing errors they have responded to me quickly.

Hey! It's u/ARealVermonter back again! You get gud yet or are you going to get banned again lmaoooo

>I’d like to agree with you completely (since I found the piece hard to follow as well) but Hartman’s Law means your launch should have been scrubbed. [reason]

Are you saying that I wrote "sledge hammer" instead of "sledgehammer," and therefore, invoking Hartman's Law, I shouldn't have pointed out that there were grammatical errors in the piece? I think you misunderstand the point of the law, and not without some irony.

I made a substantive critique, which is basically the exact opposite of the nit-picking the law pokes fun at. The few grammatical problems I point out are explicitly labeled as minor points (e.g. "Whatever, I make typos all the time"), but they still contribute to the larger point, in which I argue that this is a bad piece. I talked about typos and grammar, sure, but I actually made it pretty clear that was the least of my concerns.

Hartman's Law doesn't mean that grammar doesn't matter. It's a fun way to poke fun at nit-picking. In making the greater point that one of our elected representatives wrote gobbledygook, it is perfectly valid to point out failures of grammar, among other things.

>Also for someone who seems like they should appreciate nuance the responsibility VTDigger has to their pieces labeled OPINION elude you. Put simply they converted their “Letters to the Editor” feature/tradition to rotating/chosen Opinion pieces some years ago. While the legislative connection is front and center and his employer is unstated, it is certainly public knowledge. Unless he is a paid spokesperson it’s not really relevant tho. Or rather I’m comfortable leaving the relevance as an exercise to the reader. There’s not really any “AHA!” moment here. But I’m pretty sure VTDigger employees would be happy to spell it out more, as the times I have reached them for editing errors they have responded to me quickly.

Sure, I'll remove that critique of VTDigger. I'm sure they're underresourced and overworked and doing their best. I didn't mean it was an AHA moment as in I got VTDigger, but it was an AHA moment for me in that suddenly the piece makes sense -- he feels very strongly about it because it's a threat to his livelihood. He didn't fail to make a coherent argument because he failed to communicate it; he probably just doesn't have one. He is using his position to defend his job, not to make some greater point about policy.

I witnessed Scott Beck scold a player on an opposing team (for his language) while he was operating that teams penalty box during an Academy hockey game in which his son was playing; I don't think he's that concerned with acting ethically.

No educational institution pays property tax, though, except for for-profit schools, mostly daycare centers.

I’ll keep it simple: you

1. blamed St. Johnsbury Academy for high transportation costs and
2. implied a public high school would be more convenient or somehow have less expensive transportation

Both of these points need proof and you didn’t provide any. I tried to explain why the nation is experiencing high transportation costs but maybe you’re not interested in understanding. Enjoy your misdirected outrage!

I agree that your critique concerned more than a typo (which might have been VTDigger’s anyway) but Hartman’s Law does not dictate typos must be the only crit, no. The descent into (mere?) pedantry can be pleasant given the right circumstances, but in this case the main proviso of ‘don’t point out typos in others’ words unless yours are proofed’ holds.

While it is true that people are generally motivated to protect their employers, it doesn’t actually mean they will or won’t make cogent arguments, so that’s why I’m saying it’s not that relevant. Is motivated self-interest inherently unethical? Realistically, you’d be hard-pressed to find an adult in St. J who is not affected by SJA. And that’s anecdotal I suppose, I don’t have enough data to sway any naysayers.

In general without knowing any situation deeply can’t you always just say “well that’s what you would say, given…”? causation =/= correlation.

My comment isn't just about "more than a typo." It's about an elected representative who cannot write an essay. That isn't a descent into pedantry. It's a serious criticism of someone who is supposed to write laws for a living. The only pedantry here is invoking a silly adage to point out that I typed "sledge hammer" instead of "sledgehammer," as if somehow a random comment on reddit should be judged on the same standards as the communications of an elected official, or as if that somehow makes my point unclear or deficient. The dude wrote like 800 words of borderline nonsense; that should concern his constituents. No one but you will ever care that I put a space in the word sledgehammer in a reddit comment.

And yeah, obviously I don't know for sure. This isn't a paper I'm submitting to peer review on the psychology of Rep. Scott Beck. It's a reddit comment about Beck's incoherent opinion piece. I know that an elected official made an incoherent argument against something that might negatively affect his own employment. From there, I infer that he doesn't actually have a good argument. That's a perfectly reasonable jump.

We’re talking past each other a bit- I’m saying the pleasant pedantry is ours over whether Hartman’s Law applies here. There’s no point in being pedantic (except humorously) about it or Poe’s Law, Godwin’s Law, or any of the other “Laws” which are really observations at best. It’s indeed a bad opinion piece if we’re arguing about the possible qualified intros and not the content. And it was always clear that your complaint was not limited to a typo, but like you I couldn’t resist the zinger.

Getting back to the author’s credentials/ possible motivations Beck is listed on the SJA website as a Social Studies teacher and local business owner so as an alum I’d prefer to think that his incoherency owes to

1. not being an alum, unlike a great percent of the faculty
2. not being in the English Department
3. possibly since he got his M. Ed. from The Citadel?! TIL

All I meant was we could leave the Academy out of this. That he has no discernable point is clear but the Academy is not responsible for that.

Brain dead. You gonna vote for that spend millions. OK Pal.

Pure lies why spread this fake crap?

So a private institution has to accept anyone? that's news to me. I'm sure some do, but not all.