the_ocean t1_iyqqg37 wrote on December 3, 2022 at 12:41 PM

Reply to comment by [deleted] in Advocates sound alarm over end of hotel housing program by DHallFan169

I’m not trying to look at homelessness at all - I’m asking if anyone has serious ideas for how to help these people in hotels when the program the state already created comes to an end.

I’m not particularly interested in debating our respective views on what does or doesn’t create or increase homelessness writ large. I don’t think you know the answer to that any more than I do. And I don’t think either of us will convince the other of our personal politics. For what it’s worth I don’t think you’re crazy or necessarily wrong, I just don’t think this forum is particularly conducive to a nuanced discussion.

[deleted] t1_iyqwyco wrote on December 3, 2022 at 1:48 PM

No but nobody has any plans for what happens with these people is the program contributes indefinitely. As it is structured it is maintaining their inability to function independently and maintaining the status quo is no longer acceptable for residents. That is the main issue that decision makers and community members are worried about.

the_ocean t1_iyqxrw7 wrote on December 3, 2022 at 1:55 PM

> As it is structured it is maintaining their inability to function independently

I’m not convinced this is meaningful. Are you saying that the existence of the hotel program is specifically inhibiting people from becoming independently self-sustaining? That it is somehow worse for their path to stability than being on the street?

It seems to me the problems the people in the program face that prevent them being self-sustaining in independent living situations are independent of the hotel program itself, and that having shelter - bad as it is - is better than being on the street.

If they need more support to transition then let’s focus on that, rather than sending them to the street because local people who have housing are uncomfortable.

As to this:

> maintaining the status quo is no longer acceptable for residents.

Which residents? I would bet the residents in the hotel program find the status quo not only acceptable but vital to their continued survival. Perhaps you are discounting their opinion for some reason.

[deleted] t1_iyrb4nn wrote on December 3, 2022 at 3:44 PM

I am substantially discounting their opinion on the situation as they are more and more comprised of folks who who travelled here to use the program. There are also substantial drug and crime issues with tons of arrests for crack dealing and multiple shootings, just as one Rutland hotel. It is ridiculous to put the needs of a few dozen people in a single hotel over the needs of 18,000 residents in rutland who deserve to feel safe and don’t want a crack den behind their house.

When people are spending over a year living unemployed with no kitchen, no job training, inside of a motel that is rotting with their children, we are laying the groundwork for those children and the children of the surrounding community to get pulled into drug use and homelessness.

People don’t want to endlessly fund the housing of people who aren’t getting closer to affording their own place and who have introduced drugs and crime to the community. It is very silly to value the lives of a few dozen people who often traveled here from out of state over almost 20,000 local residents. It seems like you are completely discounting their concerns.

We are happy to fund people temporarily while they figure their shit out but not indefinitely. It is also inappropriate for someone who only recently moved to vermont to feel that they should be able to tell us locals what sacrifices we must make for their pet projects.

the_ocean t1_iyrdtai wrote on December 3, 2022 at 4:01 PM

> 18,000 residents in rutland who deserve to feel safe and don’t want a crack den behind their house.

Im not sure a literal NIMBY argument is as strong as you think it is.

> It is also inappropriate for someone who only recently moved to vermont to feel that they should be able to tell us locals what sacrifices we must make for their pet projects.

Not sure a nativist argument is that strong either.

> When people are spending over a year living unemployed with no kitchen, no job training,

Sounds like we need more programs to address these clear failings. Rather than just booting people to the street.

> It is very silly to value the lives of a few dozen people who often traveled here from out of state over almost 20,000 local residents. It seems like you are completely discounting their concerns.

Again, nativism is far sillier than anything you’re criticizing.

I am not discounting anyone’s concerns. But I am 100% discounting - and will 100% always discount - any argument about how to address those concerns that is based on “we were here first”. That’s just childish.

Beyond which, I have only your assertion that all “20,000 local residents” agree with you. I suspect you are exaggerating.

Anyway I’m not telling you that it’s all roses and we are doing the best possible job here. If you and the “20,000 local residents” are all agreed on the best path forward I’m confident you will develop and execute a plan to address the problems you face. I hope you do a great job.

[deleted] t1_iyrekzv wrote on December 3, 2022 at 4:07 PM

It isn’t nativism to recognize that when a person says “yeah this program will be expensive, it will bring in crime and generate an open air crack market but think of the hundred people it houses,” is not from here and doesn’t have an understanding of the community.

People who don’t subscribe to a local paper aren’t going to recognize what it’s done to our towns.

I agree we need extensive job training and transitional housing.

I would bet my paycheck you’ve lived here less than five years, don’t live within five miles of one of these and don’t get a local paper where there is news about local crime.

the_ocean t1_iyrg8fd wrote on December 3, 2022 at 4:19 PM

It is nativism to complain that the program puts the needs of people who “often traveled here from out of state” over “local residents”, and to argue from the position that those people are not “local residents”.

If you’re upset that someone who doesn’t live in Rutland has an opinion about Rutland policy, that’s fine. But you can make that argument based on whether you think I or any of the state-level government workers who created the program are from Rutland or understand local issues well enough to have an opinion. You’re bringing in irrelevant and, frankly, made-up information about where you believe the hotel residents are “really from”—and that’s nativism.

I don’t live in Rutland. I’m a flatlander who moved to VT a few years ago and who previously lived primarily in big cities with pervasive issues around housing availability, affordability and security, drug use, and crime. I’m not naive about any of these issues and I don’t think they’re simple problems to solve. I just haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that ending a program that’s currently providing shelter to actual at-risk people without a transition plan for those actual people is going to be good for those actual people. It sucks the state created this problem.

the_ocean t1_iyrl0z1 wrote on December 3, 2022 at 4:51 PM

To address this edit you made:

> I would bet my paycheck you’ve lived here less than five years, don’t live within five miles of one of these and don’t get a local paper where there is news about local crime.

I do in fact subscribe to a local paper with news about local crime. It costs $43 a year (if I remember correctly) and it’s some of the best money I spend. Local journalism is essential and, unfortunately, hugely undervalued in the US. VT is lucky to still have a lot of independent local papers.

Since you lost the bet, in lieu of sending me your paycheck please donate it to a shelter or food bank in your hometown, whether that’s Rutland or somewhere else.