Submitted by 2ndSifter t3_zy8y3e in wallstreetbets

TLDR; Insurance companies are investment banks at their core. They take premiums earned and invest that capital in securities, stock, and debt. This model works because the likelihood of paying out on a policy is relatively small. However, they must still keep capital on hand in the event that lawsuits, unexpected events, or catastrophes occur. Progressive is currently incurring significant losses on existing investments while simultaneously reeling from natural disaster claims.

SUMMARY:

Historically speaking, many insurance companies have been consistent safe havens for investors to park their cash. This is because insurance companies don't face the complex macroeconomic constraints that come with selling a tangible product. There are no manufacturing costs, shipping fees, or commercial real-estate costs for brick-and-mortar stores. They usually only offer an intangible contract of insurance for consumers, and typically don't even frequently have to pay out on the policy.

However, they don't simply just take the premium you pay to insure your car or home and sit on it; they reinvest it in other assets like bonds, government securities, and MBS. This is where they make the shift from an insurance company to an investment bank.

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Investment Portfolio as of September 30, 2022. US gov Obligations make up 42.8% at a ~$1.9B loss with Corp Debt Securities at a $833M loss.

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Net losses of ~$7B with fixed maturity assets leading the way.

Now of course these numbers look bad, but for the sake of due diligence, we have to consider more than just losses on portfolio investments for a set quarter to determine a company's solvency and feasibility as an investment. A company can perpetually stay billions of dollars in debt, yet remain above water for years. As a matter of fact, the majority of companies are.

So then what should be the red flags to look out for if billions of dollars in losses aren't enough?

As I mentioned before, debt and/or loss across a period aren't necessarily a cause for concern. Over the past two years, there actually hasn't been much that has raised investors' red flags. Now that macroeconomic conditions are shifting, value and balance sheets are slowly becoming relevant again. So let's take a look.

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Progressive nets 1.8% of revenue from ~$49B in revenue.

I've highlighted the information that I immediately look for when I pull up a chart. Is the company making a profit? Is the Price-to-Earnings ratio reasonable? Does the volume profile indicate that a small dollar volume could be manipulating the price?

Here we can see

1.) Net income to revenue suggests that PGR is not efficiently generating capital from operations.

2.) Price-to-Earnings ratio is abnormally high suggesting that PGR is not valued appropriately

3.) A small volume indicates that a small amount of share purchases can manipulate the stock price to the upside.

These are all red flags that in the past few years could be ignored, but are rapidly regaining relevance as investing capital sparingly in companies that reflect value back to the investor becomes a necessity.

But I digress.

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https://preview.redd.it/gr1l7y78vu8a1.png?width=478&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9082125155e2ae4a5828a6c7d5ffc45cf651762

Digging deeper into the vacuum of capital that makes up an insurance company's balance sheet, we can see that Progressive has a net cash position of $365M. Their net debt greatly outweighs the amount of quickly accessible cash on hand, but this could be long-term debt that is not rapidly approaching maturity.

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https://preview.redd.it/rxoyt40kwu8a1.png?width=498&format=png&auto=webp&s=86ad44e56093bd53cb0ba387bea582257d3687e8

Another metric that can be useful is shown above. Here we can see that there are 587M shares outstanding, and 86% of those are owned by institutions. An average daily volume of ~2.5m shares suggests that many institutions have been buying and holding shares for long-term investing, driving the price up as they go. The beta of PGR is 0.46 indicating that overall, PGR is a low-volatility stock with consistent upward momentum.

But is it a good value?

Although the stock price action has been relatively consistent over time, a number of variables could quickly shift sentiment. If any institution that owns a large block of shares is forced/decides to liquidate for any reason, the large increase in volume to the downside would significantly shift momentum since it is not an incredibly liquid stock.

Progressive's investments may incur significant losses, further increasing risk. This is especially true for their security holdings profile.

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Largest investment held in BBB-rated corporate debt

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$5B held in MBS

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Further volatility in the housing market or treasury securities may exponentially compound losses

Progressive operates in the industry of insurance, but with a majority of its earnings reinvested into securities and equity markets, a bulk of its profitability depends on its investments. It is an investment bank at its core, and I believe that it is not appropriately valued as such.

https://preview.redd.it/2n66n4du0v8a1.png?width=1480&format=png&auto=webp&s=38fad4f7c496fb6e6d361d6fa339a72b7594e893

The value of the stock is increasing, yet the put/call open interest ratio is not tracking.

I do not necessarily believe that Progressive is plummeting toward insolvency, there may be significant value to be found here. Put option contracts are abnormally cheap for the risk involved in the industry during macroeconomic conditions such as this.

It's difficult to find value in options nowadays, but I've noticed that some options expiring even a YEAR from January are still trading in the money for a fraction of the cost of other put options with similar expiries. This comes with the risk of a lower open interest, but only until institutions come to the same conclusion.

That the value of PGR has completely decoupled from reality.

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Comments

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YallGotMemes t1_j24igal wrote

God actually good DD turns me on so much

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2ndSifter OP t1_j24j3jn wrote

Critical thinking activated

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Not1random1enough t1_j24q1ee wrote

Thanks op. Pe seems crazy and thats excluding a crash of the market

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2ndSifter OP t1_j24que3 wrote

Low beta usually keeps people away from options on stocks like these, but that’s the beauty of volatility. It’s unexpected

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teteban79 t1_j265m4c wrote

DD on Flo that would turn me on, hmmm, yes, waiting for that DD

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optionsCone t1_j25mhfz wrote

Spray me with DD but not the spray behind Wendy’s

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j24rhx2 wrote

Insurance professional here and if you want to discuss financial stability, especially ability to service policyholder obligations, you need to include insurance specific ratios (e.g. liquidity, leverage, profitability, solvency, efficiency, capacity, growth). You can check out the NAIC website and AM Best for financial info on insurers.

Overpriced? Probably, but they also just became the largest auto insurer in the US and speaking from personal experience are still expanding, they seem to be competing on every single business auto submission.

Close to insolvency? Highly doubt it.

Edit: CAT losses have been horrible industry wide the last two years. See the two tidbits from their 2021 10k below in regards to commercial growth and property combined ratio. Property premiums will be adjusted accordingly with future CAT modeling and I expect Progressive to continue to grow their commercial sector.

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>The Commercial Lines business reached $8.0 billion in NPW, achieving 51% growth at an 88.9 CR in 2021, in large part due to growth in our commercial auto business

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>Underwriting expenses and non-weather losses were both below our forecasts for the year, but significant catastrophe losses during 2021 added 31.0 points, net of reinsurance, to our combined ratio.

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Not1random1enough t1_j24snep wrote

It seems like tsla at 1000, overpriced but when will it drop. A PE of 90 is pretty high even with expansion

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j24urln wrote

Maybe, but Progressive is similar to Tesla is discussed in that it isn't exclusively a traditional insurer. They are pretty heavy into insuretech and their ease of use is unmatched.

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Not1random1enough t1_j27pdbl wrote

How do you feel about companies like AIG? Their pe is below 4. Zurich is below 15 etc

I dont know the difference as its not my field. Just curious as you are from the industry

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j29wfk2 wrote

I'll look at their 10k's when I have some time later and get back to you. Off the top of my head, neither seems like they have great growth prospects and Zurich is heavy into reinsurance which has been getting killed by CAT losses.

RemindMe! 8 hours

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2ndSifter OP t1_j24ssxn wrote

Thanks for adding this. I don’t think there’s a risk of insolvency soon, but there is some pretty significant unwinding to come.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j24ufyw wrote

I agree, but Progressive is also probably the most successful insurer in transitioning to insuretech. They aren't necessarily a standard insurance company. I haven't gone over their financials, so I can't give you a completely informed and educated opinion, but there is a lot more to consider than just P/E. They very well could continue to expand and cut down on expenses. Their brand recognition is unmatched and they have streamlined their business for customer ease of use on both the insured and retailer side to an impressive degree.

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Spare-Competition-91 t1_j24y687 wrote

I have progressive. I have to say, they do good enough, but I have had some issues with them in the past with paying me out and them taking a lot of time and I had to do numerous queries to get my insurance money. Not a good look to a long time customer. I personally will go to a better insurance company if I make more money in the future. They are cheap enough, but I think they lack customer service lately just enough for it to be a problem. Maybe it's just my experience.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j250hb3 wrote

FYI, Chubb and Hartford are good carriers to go to for better customer service. Generally, overall customer experience is highly variable customer to customer. On top of that, the insurance industry is pretty understaffed at the moment, especially in the claims department, so that may have caused some lag in settlement.

Were your claims strictly property? Liability losses are adjusted differently than property and typically take longer to investigate and settle.

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albertez t1_j267wy4 wrote

Everything I ever read about Chubb makes it seem like the best run business in the sector. And they seem to consistently have best in class underwriting ratios.

I like insurance companies, and I have long positions in several, but Chubb has been and I think will continue to be my biggest by far.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j268mcr wrote

They really are a great company top to bottom. Great to work with and great to be a customer of.

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Spare-Competition-91 t1_j251v94 wrote

Good to know. And it was my car. But they kept saying they sent me my check, and it didn't come. Took over 60 days to get it after they said they would send it. I finally said, can't you just send it electronically, and they finally did. I don't know why that wasn't the first option???

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j2530dq wrote

Always do electronically with payments. Most of everyone in the industry has transitioned to that method of payment. Moving money around by mail takes a lot longer now than it did a few years ago.

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Spare-Competition-91 t1_j253isp wrote

Well sure, but they didn't say that. They said, hey we'll send you a check, is that okay? I'm like, sure. Then it didn't come. I'm trying to figure out why they tried to send it that way in the first place since I'm already paperless.

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nyse125 t1_j2796tr wrote

The real DD is always in the comments

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j27bjn1 wrote

🫡

His DD was high effort, but he wasn’t looking at industry specific metrics and kind of missed the entire point of why they have the valuation they do.

During this bear market, everyone has just pointed at PE as the end all be all for all companies. It seems like everyone thinks every single company is going to be valued like INTL, or that INTL is a buy without digging deeper into their reason for their valuations. In an industry like insurance that perspective is even more skewed, because CAT losses can wreck earnings, but that does not necessarily indicate anything about future performance.

They have strong growth, are transitioning smoothly to the next gen of insurance products, good retention, a solid balance sheet and brand value. I think this is a losing bet.

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unpeelingpeelable t1_j25dcav wrote

Insurance bro, I spent my whole life pondering if it's better to stash your money away, or fritter everything away paying all these "just in case" jacks. I doubt the Koolaid, yet I cannot stop drinking it.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j25e9f9 wrote

It depends on the characteristics and exposures of the risk you're insuring.

Managing the cost of risk can be done in a few ways, but assuming you're talking about personal lines your best bet is balancing risk transfer (insurance) and risk retention (deductibles). For example, having a $0 deductible on your car insurance typically isn't worth the additional premium it costs you. You're better off retaining losses below a dollar threshold where you're comfortable, because first dollar coverage is expensive as shit.

I work in the commercial E&S sector, so that's where my expertise is, but the same fundamental concept of managing the cost of risk applies to any individual, or organization.

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njsh20 t1_j250vxv wrote

So don’t buy, don’t put, just sit back and let it ride?

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j252pi9 wrote

I think it depends on your time frame. Puts would have been a good play a little while ago because CAT losses have been bad this whole year, especially Q4, but now that's probably prices in. I wouldn't bet against them long term tho. I still think they have room for considerable growth.

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sourpatch112 t1_j24n20f wrote

Post your positions please.

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2ndSifter OP t1_j25ama3 wrote

I have 2 PGR $130 PUTS exp 01/20/2023 and 1 PGR $90 PUT exp 05/19/2023

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g1ucose t1_j25omah wrote

Fuck sake bro wrote a whole dissertation and ended up buying 3 puts

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wizer1212 t1_j25o1kz wrote

Fair market value is $99

And tbh after looking at the chart, I’d short the s^** of it too

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PortfolioIsAshes t1_j25p9zv wrote

I expect OI to be jacked up once this catches traction, I expected better numbers but I also doubt it'll go down that much neither unless they blow up all their investments. They're America's 3rd largest insurance company and the biggest auto insurer in the states, a bit hard to make them fall even with that amount of debt.

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GoldIndependent6 t1_j28odfa wrote

So I can’t buy a put unless I own 100 shares of PGR? I’m still wet behind the ears, sorry!

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2ndSifter OP t1_j28q5bh wrote

Purchasing a PUT or CALL gives an investor the right, but not the obligation to purchase 100 shares at the underlying strike price. Given that options are contracts, shares typically never change hands.

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GoldIndependent6 t1_j28qr6m wrote

Right I understand the “gist” of it. Here is where it gets confusing for me. I buy a call for example, for $80. Strike price is $150, exp 1 month out. Whatever. Boom I’m in the money, I sell the contract, collect the premium right? So maybe the premium on the contract went up to $200 or something so I made $50? I couldn’t exercise right because I don’t have the shares? Then on the flip side, if it was a put I bought, is that where getting assigned comes in and you get wrecked? Im just confused yo. Like where is the profit made off options. The difference in price of the option contract itself?

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mustbethaMonay t1_j29exx4 wrote

Yes, the money most people make in trading options is off the difference in premium. You're really trading premiums, unless you hold till expiration, when it expires worthless if OTM or assigned or cashed out if ITM. most brokerages will let you partially exercise with the value of the contract.

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redpillbluepill4 t1_j2cwctq wrote

You only need shares to sell TO OPEN a call, or a ton of money to sell TO OPEN a put.

If you're buying a call or a put then you just pay the premium.

Watch YouTube videos

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Stereo-soundS t1_j24nw62 wrote

Yeah and um why is this stickied? Lol.

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OPINION_IS_UNPOPULAR t1_j24od4v wrote

I found it in /new and wanted it to get the credit it deserves. High effort content makes the sub more interesting.

I do this almost every day, go into /new and find good stuff that didn't get enough upvotes and sticky it.

It's easy to upvote templated static memes, harder to upvote long high effort text, but when you think back to what makes WSB memorable, it's never a templated static meme that you could have found on r/funny.

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Bitter_Coach_8138 t1_j24q8zq wrote

So, you work for Geico

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OPINION_IS_UNPOPULAR t1_j24qokm wrote

#🐸

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Ashamed-Reality-4352 t1_j28oay9 wrote

Because WSB mods are running on paychecks from Wall Street. Every post stickied by the mod ends up being a terrible investment. Never buy anything stickied by u/OPINION_IS_UNPOPULAR. I bought TTD puts after reading another DD stickied by the same WSB mod. The next day, it fucking pumped 20% and my puts went 0$ immediately. Be careful about anything stickied by this mod

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[deleted] t1_j28s1h2 wrote

[deleted]

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MyPeePeeReversed t1_j24ox7l wrote

This is really good DD. Can't wait to read this while on the toilet 😖🚽🧻🪠

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VisualMod t1_j24e61q wrote

>I completely agree. Progressive is a terrible investment at this point in time. The company is facing significant losses on its investments, and the stock price does not reflect this risk adequately. Put options are abnormally cheap for the level of risk involved, and I believe that there is significant value to be found here.

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j25do8q wrote

PE is a useless way of evaluating insurance companies because they aren’t producing “earnings” the same way other companies are.

PGR gets a premium because their combined ratio and PIF growth are outpacing the entire industry by a lot.

The personal auto unit is no longer driving profitability, the commercial unit is (accounted for almost 50% of total profitability) and its growing like crazy.

This DD is great and all but it lacks the requisite understanding of the insurance industry as a whole.

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[deleted] t1_j28olpi wrote

[deleted]

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j28ovdc wrote

Ok sure but if you’re going to do all this DD and say it’s overvalued you might want to understand some of the basics of the industry.

Combined ratio and policy in force growth are like the basics of the basics

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Aintthatthetruthyall t1_j24ns11 wrote

All the world is insolvent. And at war. What to do?

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lJustLurkingl t1_j24sfln wrote

Has Flo said whether or not they'll cover damage to property because of nuclear war? Didn't see an answer to this in the DD.

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shadylex t1_j25hu0u wrote

Nuclear war was always guaranteed from the start so unfortunately no you won’t be covered as it was a preexisting condition but don’t fret, in the event of a nuclear exchange it would be unlikely for you to make it to a vault in time

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Aintthatthetruthyall t1_j29gqxo wrote

It’s all written in Revelations, even before the advent of the bomb. Those boys just didn’t know what to call it but they saw the train wreck of humanity coming.

Best part is maybe the earth gets dinosaurs again. For the next leg of its journey.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j26gd5a wrote

War is an automatic exclusion on all policies 🤓

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Spare-Competition-91 t1_j24yibd wrote

I would look at other insurance companies publicly traded and see how they compare. It does seem like PGR has a high PE compared to other insurance companies.

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j25cnkk wrote

They have a high multiple because they are the most profitable and fastest growing by a long shot. Well capitalized and the commercial business is insanely profitable.

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Rim_World t1_j252vtl wrote

All insurance companies are overbought right now IMO. Check out CB. After dividends payout, I'm expecting ~15% drop

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SunriseSurprise t1_j25lb47 wrote

What risk is there in a mostly-car-insurance company when car insurance is mandated by law in many places, and they can increase prices at will and blame inflation? Sure if they're taking all that money and throwing it all on black, there's some risk there, but Progressive has been and continues to kill it in the car insurance industry and there's not really a risk in that industry. That's probably why they keep going up like they do and with reliably going up, why puts a year out are cheap.

Sometimes that's where the opportunity is, but there'd need to be some type of catalyst to knock them down and I don't know what that'd be.

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4troglodyte t1_j27dzj2 wrote

Each State has an Insurance Commissioner and each Insurance Company Admitted to their State MUST make rate filings that are either approved or denied by the Insurance Commissioner. For example, in California the Insurance Commissioner is not approving rate increases filed by Insurance Carriers seeing adjustment for inflation impacts on auto repair parts/labor, replacement vehicle costs for totaled vehicles, supply chain delays in repair that increase rental car expenses, and other factors. Insurance company’s are not altruistic and if a profit isn’t possible in a market, let’s say Florida or California, they will exit that marketplace. To say there is “some risk” for Progressive and others being hamstrung by Departments of Insurance is a gross understatement.

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Cgable01 t1_j25ykod wrote

Insurance companies have a combined loss ratio For example Progressive spends $1.14 for every dollar they bring in via direct written premium (I didn’t look it up but it’s around that with most carriers).

Their money comes for their investments which make up for the loss.

I would expect that ratio to actually rise as insurance rates are increased due to the increase in car price and other associated costs like providing rentals at higher rates and for longer periods due to delays in parts and labor.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j27c0e8 wrote

That’s way higher than average. Generally, you want your combined ratio under 1. Also, more so than the property, social inflation has been one of the main drivers of increased loss costs. Liability claims are far more costly for carriers than properly claims.

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HitTheApexHitARock2 t1_j253uxi wrote

I have totaled two cars and progressive paid out way more than they were worth (obvs over the past 2-3 years)

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Skullkidmusic t1_j25swad wrote

Im sitting at my desk and after reading this I have wood knocking on wood 🪵

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farewellmate t1_j26buxg wrote

Haven’t seen a single person mention the #1 metric for insurance companies… combined ratio. #2 may be how they leverage the float which also isn’t mentioned. You have to understand an industry to do real DD.

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lalunafortuna t1_j258w8a wrote

PGR’s debt/Equity ratio is 0.45 per the latest financial report. And all the debt is long term. So it appears they have sufficient liquidity to weather any storm.

Having said that, I do agree the current valuation seems stretched. Forward P/E looks better

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Aggravating_Fig6288 t1_j25hvty wrote

Blah blah blah puts or calls what strike and what expy already OP you expect me to read and make sound financial decisions? Give me a YOLO already to full port into

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_theshortbig t1_j25zrq6 wrote

Someone hit my porsche and progressive came in way high on the estimate. Bearish.

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Guzxxxy t1_j26vyb6 wrote

I stopped reading after the first sentence when you equated an insurance company to an investment bank

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2ndSifter OP t1_j26ytsx wrote

Why?

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Guzxxxy t1_j277lr1 wrote

Because either you don’t know what an insurance company does or you don’t know what an investment bank does

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nateccs t1_j26yn3g wrote

i'm looking to get puts when this goes up a little bit more.

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nyse125 t1_j2798vj wrote

No emojis, doesn't tell me whether or not I should buy calls or puts. Literally 0/10.

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OB1KENOB t1_j24rvll wrote

Too lazy to read. What is Cramer’s take on this stock? I’ll just do the opposite

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BugHoliday5045 t1_j25qaox wrote

I’d take a look at their historical combined ratio and judge on their ability to assign rate to risk. They are one of the best in the auto industry looking at their combined ratio the last 5 years. Success in telematics has served them well.

Take a look at the discussion around pgr in the Berkshire annual meetings as well.

Insurance companies are looking worse right now because of inflation and lag due to state filings. I.e. If I needed to take rate in 2020, filed, got approved in 2021, then rate flowed through my books throughout the next year because of a 6 month policy period (only increase rate at renewal), then inflation increases and my loss cost goes up significantly - I’m going to have a down year or two while rates get right with refilling a etc.

I imagine analysts are looking at more of the core components of the business and how it should perform once inflation slows.

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krvdave t1_j25qdl2 wrote

They raised my insurance rates by about 40% in the last 3 years. No accidents or tickets, 800 FICO.

Despite that, they're still about 5% cheaper for the same coverage from the cheapest competitor, so no reason to switch.

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Magna_86 t1_j29q1hk wrote

Have you tried rebuilding your policy as a new customer on their website? I've done it twice now when they tried to raise my rates for no reason. Last time I dropped it $30 from my current premium and they were going to raise it over $40 a month. They won't match the rate either but instead issue all the paperwork like new. You have to call the agent, buy your policy online, they confirm it and then cancel the old one. Also your history/level stays will you too.

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Practical_Damage9231 t1_j26dltl wrote

Some interesting DD, enjoyed reading thanks. Wish there was a less risky way to get me some puts. Yes I'm a pussy

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CodeMonkey84 t1_j26icxx wrote

Great DD OP. I wonder what you think about new insurance companies like Lemonade?

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LobotomyJesus t1_j26nx78 wrote

Thought provoking DD that serves as a good foundation for more analysis. Nice.

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tony-ole t1_j26thry wrote

What about geographic coverage and their types of policy? Looks like these winter storms may lead to a much higher claims rate this season too

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BeanTownBlues1 t1_j27ly64 wrote

This is completely regarded. Progressive is one of the best run companies on the planet. I dont think you fully understand the insurance business. This year they hit target profit while the rest of the industry failed to do so and they stashed extra cash into reserves to save up for a bad year. Oh, and interest rates going up helps to increase their return on capital. If you want to short a P&C insurance company, go short Travelers or Allstate.

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BenMic81 t1_j27r0y2 wrote

Hmm I don’t want to criticise a good DD but - no, insurance businesses are not investment banks. First of all, they invest their own funds even if these are gained from customers and have to be used for risk retention / payouts. Second you leave out the entire passive side of the balance sheet. Acturial processes and reinsurance are not negligible effects but core issues of a good insurance company.

The days where you could basically ignore passive because rates are so high is still over even if you can get 3%er state debt again.

Actuallly many insurance businesses may have a better outlook now with rising interest rates - in the long run. In the short run there may be book losses in held debt titles. But many insurers are able to hold these titles to maturity which will lead to no actual losses … so. Difficult to assess an insurer without knowing more about its capital management and asset allocation.

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30DaysOfJumpFatigue t1_j293te0 wrote

I read the tittle as The Vaguation Enigma.. did a double take. What's this wall of letters I had to scroll past. mouse finger is tired now..

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30DaysOfJumpFatigue t1_j294v42 wrote

ok having read some of this dd.. do they have to pay claims if everyone they underwrote looses their home or car to default? Nope. I wonder how that affected Ins. co's in 2008?

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2ndSifter OP t1_j295i03 wrote

Oddly, insurance companies began falling in 2006, when the collapse actually started. This is because the number of homes available for sale/insurable was cresting

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kampalt t1_j2a1hoj wrote

They'll just yolo on Bitcoin and go to the moon

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Fibocrypto t1_j2df46x wrote

Thank you for the heads up . I've owned this stock for a while and maybe it's time I looked at it closer

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Shakedaddy4x t1_j26nutv wrote

So much DD and no proof of positions provided. Proof of positions or ban

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nateccs t1_j26ykra wrote

he did post his positions 7 hrs ago

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Shakedaddy4x t1_j289blr wrote

In this post? I clicked on all the links buit couldn't find it

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Ashamed-Reality-4352 t1_j28phig wrote

OP only bought like 3 put options. This post is an epic waste of time. Doesn't understand the industry yet pretends by using a lot of catchwords that say nothing about the actual business.

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robbinhood69 t1_j24sx3t wrote

I've been thinking this is gonna happen to multiple insurance companeis for a long time

u wanna know something else fun ?

They also all have a shit ton of something called "Synthetic GIC" on their books. At least the ones I looked into have it PRU, they have tens of billions of this shit. Google what a Synthetic GIC is and tell me that shit is not a ponzi scheme.

U wanna know what else is fun ? Is all these insurers reinsure each other. This makes sense for localized events...like a hurricane isn't likely to strike Florida at the same time an earthquake wipes out los angeles, at the very least you can make an argument they are uncorrelated

But lmfao macroconditions have a correlation of 1 and if they all reinsure each other that is just fucking moronic

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j25frsg wrote

  1. Not a scam. Insurers adhere to both GAAP and SAP principles which have different ways of valuing assets. Under SAP principles, insurers also have to have a certain amount of their investments in fixed income to ensure policyholder surplus and is reflected as "synthetic GIC".
  2. You clearly do not have any idea how diversification, or insurance works. Reinsurance is essentially to avoid large losses and spread risk. There are specific company's who specialize in reinsurance like Lloyd's of London, SwissRe, MunichRe, GenRe and GallagherRe to name a few. It's not "all insurance companies". Spreading risk between different ocean cargo vessels a few hundred years ago is how Lloyd's was established as the first insurer, which is essentially the same principle as reinsurance.
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robbinhood69 t1_j25ygpa wrote

idc if moody's and S&P think Synthetic GIC is okay, that shit is impossible to find information on and promises guaranteed yields

it promised guaranteed yields during a time of 0 FFR

oh gee i wonder how this is possible. Anytime anyone offers guaranteed yields and it is not jerome powell himself it is a fucking scam

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j25z59e wrote

Why type so many words just to say “I’m a fucking idiot and don’t have any idea what I’m talking about”.

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j2626la wrote

Right? Why even try to argue when you clearly have zero understanding of complex financial concepts. It’s fucking complicated, but not black magic, with a sprinkle of fraud mixed in. I don’t expect anyone, except for specific niches of industry professionals to understand the inner workings of it.

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robbinhood69 t1_j261lui wrote

why not attack hte substance of hwat i'm saying brody

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j261qsf wrote

Because there is no substance to what you’re saying. You’re saying something is a scam when you have no idea what it actually is. Despite someone trying to explain it to you

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robbinhood69 t1_j2629kq wrote

what good reason is there to wrap instruments in an instrument called a synthetic GIC ?

Even homeboy said "oh they are required to hold fixed income and that's why they put it in GIC" but GIC is not just fixed income shit

it's a way for them to get around legislation so that it's technically "fixed income" but it's backed by shit that is not fixed income

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gucciflipflops337 t1_j262twh wrote

Clearly you cannot comprehend the explanation that has been given to you. You’re dead set on it being a “scam” or some type of scheme.

Go look up the definition for dunning Kruger and you’ll find your answer

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j260ivp wrote

> A synthetic GIC includes an asset ownership component and a contractual component that is intended to be valued at book value. The associated assets backing the contract’s book value are owned and held in the name of the plan or the plan’s trustee. Such associated assets typically consist of a diversified fixed income portfolio, including but not limited to treasury, government, mortgage, and/or corporate securities of high average credit quality. To support the book value obligation, the contract-holder relies first on any associated assets and then, to the extent those assets are insufficient, the financial backing of the wrap issuer. Wrap contracts can be issued by banks, insurance companies, or other financial institutions.

Again, you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about lol

Even if the combined yield in a hypothetical synthetic GIC portfolio was 0 (they weren’t) and insurers expect that portion of their investment portfolio to be lower, rates simply increase for policy holders. It’s not magic and they all abide by the same rules.

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robbinhood69 t1_j261j00 wrote

why bother wrapping those instruments in a product at all when these insurers hold those instruments by themselves ?

there's no good reason to wrap the instrument and have someone else be responsible for it i mean wtf

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0dteSPYFDs t1_j262kvg wrote

To ensure adherence to the plan and have a 3rd party guaranteeing the first party’s assets, or lack thereof. Again, it’s the same concepts of compliance and risk management. This is done to avoid contagions like the 2008 GFC.

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