Submitted by DoremusJessup t3_11dp8od in worldnews
Well...they already built them. They refuse to take them down, as court ordered
They are not court ordered to take them down. The court just ruled them illegal to build in the first place….
Yeah, at first I was like "what?", but it makes sense here.
This supreme court order was 500 days ago and literally nothing has been done since, an absolute disgrace by the Norwegian government.
It's okay to be principled on human rights but solving climate emergency is not just about picking who wins. There are people who are going to lose and that has to be accepted.
We can't as a world say we won't do this because it will hurt this group or that group, or Mr Smith...
It's all very complicated and decisions like this just highlight the tragedy of the situation
I think we face more ethical problems when it comes to who is losing and winning. Sometimes companies and govs make decisions that are the cheapest or the most profitable, even if they aren't that beneficial or ethical. They also tend to put the interests of the rich above the wellbeing of the least responsible and the most vulnerable communities.
Even the seemingly great things can have different value. Like, for example, "planting trees" can be done through planting quick-growing foreign monocultures in the Indigenous land. Or it can be done through replacing rich man's golf courts or dried up agricultural land with diverse local ecosystems and native plants. These things have different value and impact, but they can be presented as equal. Imo, it's important to consider that those are actually good options, and not the rich getting richer from patching up the problem instead of fixing it.
The decisions needed are extraordinarily complex and beyond me
I think the Sami people has done enough losing at the hands of the Norwegian government…
True. So just offer the handful of impacted Sami reindeer herders 1M Euro each to relent. They'll in fact be stampeding over each other to take the deal.
I mean this is silly. Don’t burn fossil fuels for energy (they pollute), don’t use nuclear reactors (they melt down), and don’t build renewable power (it shuffles deck blocks animal migrations).
At some point environmental activists aren’t helping the environment they’re just obstructing progress.
The Sami people might possibly rank last with almost all other indigenous groups as the least responsible for the climate catastrophe. They have the least contribution to and enjoyed the least benefit from humanity's use of fossil fuels. If there was any justice in this world those wind turbines would have been built on top of the mansions of oil CEOs and shareholders. But I'm a realist so I realise that it is silly to force oil tycoons to give up their massive mansions and wealth and that it is silly not to force the sami to give up protecting their lands and livelihood so that the rest of us can continue to exist.
you really don't understand how wind works or the economics of placing and building turbines
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I've thought about this problem for a while. If x doesn't work and y doesn't work and z doesn't work, what's left?
I think it's because the problems started earlier, and go deeper, than western industrialized society.
I was born and raised in the area where theese windmills are. The 18 years of me living in that are i have never seen a single sami person, and at worst maybe a couple reindeer. The windmills are closer to the coast, and the thing they are complaining about is that some reindeer might occasionally wander close to that area. But of all the people in Oslo having a protest. Not a single one of them is from that area. My view on the matter is that im pro windmill, im pro progression of the norwegian infrastructure and renewable energy. Norway is going through a energy price crisis because the government decided to sell more energy to neighbouring countries. But that part of norway and further north still has relatively cheap power because it is not connected to the same powerlines as south norway, and most of the power generated is from wind and water.
The problem is that the Wind farm is fully developed, the problem for the government is that they have to clean up the mess the last government made (kinda funny nobody mention that detail ) they also have to take inconsideration the economic conditions for both the owner's of the wind park(they stand to lose about 300 million €) and the reindeer herds ( there really isn't an option for the government to let the Samí loose this one). My take on this one is to put the brakes (stopping them) on the wind farm during winter pasture and see what happens as the reindeers apparently don't like the sound of the windmills (after all we do shut down our hydrodynamic power plants when the rivers run low and to allow more water in the rivers so the ecosystem aren't hindered.
>they have to clean up the mess the last government made (kinda funny nobody mention that detail
The concession to build the park was given in 2010 by NVE. This was during the Stoltenberg goverment(Workersparty/Arbeiderpartiet). So blaming the whole "mess" on "the last goverment" is incorrect. Under the Solberg goverments(Right/Høyre); Building started in 2015 and the park was fully operational in 2020.
The courts came to the verdict 11th of october 2021. The Støre goverment(Workersparty/Arbeiderpartiet) went into power 14th of october 2021. Doubt the Solberg had time to fix anything in the 3 days before transition of power.
So the current goverment is stuck cleaning up the mess made by their own political party in 2010. Not "The last goverment".
"Norgesvassdrags-og energidirektorat(NVE)ga i firevedtak av 7.juni 2010 konsesjon tilfølgendevindkraftanlegg på Fosen". Translated - Norwegian water and energy directorate gave the concession in june 7th 2010.
Verdict:
https://www.domstol.no/no/hoyesterett/avgjorelser/2021/hoyesterett-sivil/hr-2021-1975-s/
Easy solution!
Have the energy corporation pay 150-200M euros to the reindeer folk to buy a nice plot of territory for them and buy some luxury barns as well. The wind farm comes out with half the cost of a worst case and the reindeer are filthy rich. Win-win.
The reindeer are free roaming. There are no barns. The closest you get is some fenced areas they will herd the reindeer in during slaughter season.
Edit: They can use those million Euros to get rid of their wind turbine junk
Ah, I was kidding. This should have been corrected before millions in turbines were placed.
>free roaming reindeers should have been corected to barn deers. no more payout for loss from goverment, cause its crazy, ourund here they feed the deers on the traintraks! insane but true
time to make some regulations. Reindeer should be kept inside barns to get goverment subs.
I know you're joking but "indigenous people should pay for land they've always been on, and give up their lifestyle for the sake of non-indigenous people's convenience" has resulted in too much real-life genocide behind it to be funny
Edit: Read it wrong, haven't had my coffee yet, crossed out the incorrect part
That's not at all what I even joked about. I said the shitty company should pay them 150-200m if they are going to go against court rulings and build there anyway. Which would give them the option of moving and buying expensive properties which may be better than this will be, since they'll likely be forced out.
Again, I was joking but the joke wasn't that they should move and pay for their land but that they should be paid for it if it's being taken and not given back.
It's a ridiculous situation to have in 2023, but sadly not surprising.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, original reduced by 74%. (I'm a bot)
> The Swedish environmental activist Greta Thunberg joined Indigenous Sami demonstrators on Monday, blocking the entrance to Norway's Energy Ministry.
> The Sami Indigenous people, who are spread out across mostly parts of Norway, but also Sweden, Finland and Russia, have been herding reindeer for centuries.
> "Indigenous rights, human rights, must go hand-in-hand with climate protection and climate action. That can't happen at the expense of some people. Then it is not climate justice," Thunberg told Reuters news agency outside the ministry's main entrance with other demonstrators.
Extended Summary | FAQ | Feedback | Top keywords: Sami^#1 Ministry^#2 Energy^#3 herding^#4 reindeer^#5
I think the reindeer can adjust.
Reindeer might play a role in the ecology of the region at this point, like bisons in the US prior to colonisation, who were both the source of food for the Indigenous communities and the essential part of the local environment. Preserving biodiversity, local species and the environment are as crucial for mitigating climate change and carbon capture as finding clean energy sources. Reindeer might be helping that - by moving the soil, proving natural fertilizer, transporting seeds, etc, and their role in the ecosystem needs to be researched and be accounted for. Indigenous peoples generally have better understanding of the role of the animals in their local ecosystem because they historically depend on this ecosystem being healthy for survival.
Wind turbines won’t effect any of that.
The wind turbines put a bunch of micro and nano plastic along with other nasty pollution into the environment. It ends up in reindeers, fish, plants, water, etc.
Not to mention the disturbance of birds, which are also an important part of the ecosystem.
> wind turbines put a bunch of micro and nano plastic
Say what? Any plastic in wind turbines is just pee in the ocean compared to the rest. Like, we're talking less than 1%. How about we get rid of nondegradable packaging materials first?
I don't see how the two are in conflict. Let's do both
Let's do what, not build wind turbines which displace fossil fuel generation? Surely not!
There are plenty of alternatives to wind turbines that aren't fossil fuel based which do far less harm to fragile ecosystems.
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No more than what’s already there.
That’s been disproven by comparing water samples before and after windmills were put near rivers
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No, they can’t. The smaller their available terrain, the more likely disease outbreaks become. Worst case is that entire herds must be put down to stop the spread of disease. This is already an issue for the South Sámi herds which are operating in narrow corridors of nature that are being suffocated by infrastructure.
The reason why Greta and Norwegian environmentalists are against this is because it represents the exact type of careless mentality towards nature which has caused the global climate crisis in the first place.
tradition shouldn't stand in the way of progress lol. if we would put tradition above of everything few things would get done in any society.
People hear tradition and think it's a hobby or something. It is not.
This is a way of life for the Sami people. They rely on reindeer herding as a matter of survival. The energy company wants to take land from an ethnic minority group to further their own profits.
The path to progress should not be laid with the blood of indigenous minorities.
I mean… it’s more complicated than that. Very few Sami people today are reindeer herders, and even fewer have it as their main occupation. I’m more familiar with the situation in Sweden than Norway, but here only about 100 herders (out of 4,600 people who own reindeer) have enough reindeer to live on. Economically the practice is heavily subsidized by the government (about 40-50 % of revenue come from compensation for predator kills and prize subsidies). Yet 30-50 % of all of Sweden is reindeer herding territory. Which means that almost any land use in half of the country run into these conflicts. Wind turbines, mines, roads, hunting, fishing - you name it.
Also, there are conflicts within the Sami over reindeer herding. You have to be a member of a “Sameby” to herd reindeer, and the “samebyar” has been accused by other Sami people to be discriminatory as the members decide who gets to be members, so it becomes a insider/outsider issue where Sami people who for some reason didn’t become members when they were formed are excluded despite having well documented Sami heritage.
Hypothetically, if there was an indigenous tribe called the Coali that burned coal to survive as a tradition, would you still support protecting them from wind mills?
I'd bet a single average factory puts out more pollution than an indigenous tribe burning coal would...
So then we should still respect that tribes decision to fuck the environment and block windmills?
This is a straw man argument
Well said.
So no trolling uncontacted tribes with drone light shows of human faces in the sky? Aww shucks. Kicks dirt
You think unchecked climate change might be a problem for the Sami people or nah?
You can work within the limits of tradition to accomplish things. There wouldn't be a thing as culture if you eliminated every aspect of a society that didn't optimize productivity...
I think the compromise between tradition and environmental stewardship lies on the other side of this specific issue. and that you can pay adequate respect to the past while also allowing wind farms to operate in contravention of some elders sensibilities
I have a millenias-old tradition in my family of burning things for energy.
Environmental review is supposed to occur before construction. Obviously very few occurrences where governments go back and change this. This stopped being about the environment when the price tag came in. If Norway was serious about eating €300 million to compensate the owners they should vote on it, pay for it, and move on.
How many people is “6 families”?
They raise reindeer for food and that’s lame reindeer aren’t returning to their ancestral herding area due to windmills but also 6 families Vs enough energy for 100,000 peoples homes.
Green energy is one of the things o feel like should be pushed ahead of most things and here it certainly feels like a cash buyout of some sort makes sense.
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So you want green energy but not where it’s most efficient?
Preserve to kill.
Only humans would come up with something that stupid.
Yup. Wait until she sees what Gov Murphy is doing to whales off the coast of NJ. It’s a fucking nightmare
Lol imagine killing your movement by not letting any progress to get through
5 bucks they gave her the megaphone didn’t say a word just for the photo
Human rights, such as nut-job environmentalists right to fly around the world to demand everyone else stop flying.
Because unchecked climate change certainly won't affect reindeer herding traditions.
facepalm.gif
We need progress! Also we need to protect tradition!
Fuck.
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Just don't let the reindeer fly around.
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Humans rights dont matter much when humankind is gone
I can't wait for more urban nimbys to realize they just need to use hunting animals as an excuse >_>
Why didn’t Greta go to East Palestine ?
Always taking advantage of democratic government in order to gain attention
Will never see her dare to go to China or Russia to protest
So an indigenous tribe’s right to herd reindeer is more important than averting a climate crisis? This just shows it was never about solving climate change, but being politically correct.
If an indigenous tribe wanted to burn coal all day, should we respect that and not build green energy on their land? Absolutely ridiculous.
Again...I'd bet a single factory puts out more pollution than an indigenous coal burning tribe.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just compensate them with a 100 million or something rather than dismantle the whole park?
This hurts the message, plus her big green energy backers won't be happy.
Did you read it?
Anything she touches is taken less serious
Norwegians give their politicians shit when they drive a car instead of bike somewhere close so I'm not sure they will see it the same way.
You can run this through google translate unless you speak Norwegian. It is a discussion about why everyone “hates” Thunberg.
https://www.diskusjon.no/topic/1856436-hvorfor-så-enormt-hat-mot-greta-thunberg/#comments
I am Norwegian
Ah I read your username and thought redneck american. The Norwegians I know are all like 19-22 yr Olds and view her favorably.
No worries. I can’t blame you for being mislead
Wrong.
Why does it hurt her message. Its pretty consistent with being good stuarts of the land and the people.
It hurts the movement against this so called “green energy” because people see her name and immediately lose interest in what is being said.
Maybe the fact that issues are driven by name recognition not content is one of the problems today
The content were doing just fine before she got involved. My impression is that she is being brought in to discredit the cause. It is definitely working. Here we are, discussing her instead of these awful wind turbines. Guilty as charged.
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Kent_Knifen t1_ja9ztpm wrote
People need to read the last sentence in the title over again.
There is a court order to not build the turbines. Energy company wants to ignore the court order. Thunberg and court are on the same side in this.