BazilBroketail t1_ixxlg2p wrote
Reply to comment by hieronymusanonymous in Returning to normal relations with Russia would be a mistake, says Lithuanian president by hieronymusanonymous
Wait who in the absolute fuck is talking about normalizing relations with Russia?
putsch80 t1_ixxmlzt wrote
Lots of politicians absolutely will be once the war in Ukraine dies down. Some will be paid Russian puppets trying to drum up support for Russia in their home countries. Some will have constituents who want their business interests in Russia to re-normalize or to have access to Russian natural resources. But make no mistake: there will be a sizable chorus of people seeking a normalization of relations to the pre-2022 level.
pm_me_your_pay_slips t1_ixy6we8 wrote
Don’t forget to add the people who got into the war and will want to pull out when it gets too expensive.
h3ron t1_ixylvs7 wrote
Why the downvotes? This is a valid concern. It has happened very recently to Kurds and Afghans. West countries just said:
"We got bored with this war, so we'll pull the plug. I guess all you will just die. Goodbye and good luck".
The only difference now is that there are NATO and EU countries that don't want to be the next Chechnya/Georgia/Crimea/Ukraine so they're now pushing for curbing Putin's aggressivity.
anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixyxiu2 wrote
> "We got bored with this war, so we'll pull the plug. I guess all you will just die. Goodbye and good luck".
Please don't act as if "the west" was a single bloc. Letting the kurds die was primarily a US-thing, heavily criticized by everybody else.
"The west" is something that only seems to be seen as a real thing by americans (who think everybody is culturally just like them) and those trying to build a "counter-west".
aig_ma t1_ixzb9pk wrote
>Letting the kurds die was primarily a US-thing, heavily criticized by everybody else.
It was a Trump thing, not a US thing. He made the order on a Sunday night after all his advisors had gone home. Previously when he had tried to do it, he was blocked, because anyone who saw what he was doing knew it would undermine US interests. After he did it, even his Republican "allies" were shocked.
As far as I can tell, no one in the US supported this decision.
[deleted] t1_iy18ywr wrote
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PubliusDeLaMancha t1_ixzf24i wrote
It's an everybody thing.
Do you actually believe "the world" would have accepted the US forcibly decreasing Iraqs borders to establish an independent Kurdistan? The entire cause of the enmity between Saddam and the West was his desire to conquer Kuwait.. Changing Iraqs borders even in favor of Kurds would have undermined the Western intervention entirely.
If you want to blame someone historically, blame the British for not guaranteeing a Kurdistan out of the former Ottoman Empire (Arabs got like 12 states remember)
Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Iran all presently administer territory with Kurdish majorities.. They are free to establish a Kurdistan at any point in time.. Why haven't they?
If anything, supporting an independent Kurdistan is primarily a US-only thing (not of their government but popular support of their people)
anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixzfnbp wrote
I meant that more narrowly.
To my knowledge, the situation was that a massive amount of kurds helped cut down ISIS. Then, after the deed was done, they got abandoned.
I think the minimum here would have been to make sure the active fighters and their families are safe. That doesn't neccessarily include an own country, even offering refuge would have been at least something.
The overall politics in that area regarding statehood of minorities are completely fucked up, it's far too complicated and nuanced for me to understand even half of it. So not commenting on that.
TigerKingz t1_iy2catn wrote
The afghans nationalists werent fighting , indifferent on average to the Taliban (or were Taliban). The Kurds, unfortunately, straddle 4 countries so not much can really be done there (including a NATO country).
Mia-Wal-22-89 t1_ixxngp9 wrote
The West will want to. Guaranteed. It’s probably a really great time to listen to Baltic states but the West always believes since the reasonable thing to do would be to negotiate that regimes like Russia will eventually come to the table and compromise. They won’t. They see it as weak. They might fuck around and lie some to buy time, but we’ll always end up back here.
butterhoscotch t1_ixy9bkg wrote
I mean generally the west doesnt antagnoize russia. They wont bend over after the war, but they will quietly want to resume normal trade and make profit off their misery as well as ukraines.
Politically the US is a dumpster fire and is full of pro russian propaganda that is mind boggling.
therealjerseytom t1_ixygq32 wrote
> Politically the US is a dumpster fire and is full of pro russian propaganda that is mind boggling.
I dunno man, been here all 37 years of my life and that really doesn't seem like an accurate statement...
HobbitFoot t1_ixyfgny wrote
The West here isn't a blanket term.
If any Western country wants normalization soon, it will be Germany. The country runs on Russian energy and makes a lot of money exporting to Russian markets.
France seems apprehensive, mainly because ditching Russian energy may mean a complete rethink of its internal energy economy in a way to make it more open with the rest of the continent.
SexySaruman t1_ixyutnf wrote
Many big France’s companies never left Russia and still happily operate there.
Especially high-end luxury and clothing companies.
MSTRMN_ t1_ixyist8 wrote
>The country runs on Russian energy and makes a lot of money exporting to Russian markets.
They don't anymore? NS1 and 2 are both dead, Germany's gas storages are full, new LNG terminals are being built, if not already done
HobbitFoot t1_ixyjop0 wrote
Germany gets gas from Russia via other pipelines, the gas storage may not last the winter, and the LNG terminals may not be enough to replace Russian supplies.
Hopefully Germany gets a mild winter.
MSTRMN_ t1_ixyk72s wrote
How it "may not last" when officials say that it's enough? In any case, I doubt Nord Stream will restart any time soon, since it's practically destroyed
HobbitFoot t1_ixyoc94 wrote
I hope it is enough, but I know they had concerns earlier.
And Nordstream I & II definitely aren't starting soon due to likely Russia's actions.
Jonsj t1_ixyuqf9 wrote
Even if gas storage won't last they will likely buy expensive lng and manage, none of the rich European countries stand to suffer much in this crisis, they will outbid and use monetary reserves to get through the winter.
Countries where the heating bill is a significant part of the monthly bill will suffer a lot more, these countries does not have the same resources to soften the fall for its citizens either;/
Otterfan t1_iy0mjyu wrote
They will need new supplies of gas throughout the winter.
anti-DHMO-activist t1_ixyyhjx wrote
Just to get a bit more detail into this, the germany-russia-thing is not really primarily based on cheap energy.
It's much, much deeper.
Don't forget, something like a third of germany was basically russia for half a century. The people in east germany were forced to learn russian, generally were culturally extremely close. And tons of pipelines and general trade relations were built during that time.
Additionally, a large share of the german populations are "(spät)aussiedler" - people from ex-soviet areas, culturally mostly russian, with german heritage.
They'd have been stupid to not utilize the connections back then. At least until crimea. I think that was the point when we should have started to shut it down completely - but sadly, merkel's cdu (merkel grew up in the east) wasn't having any of it.
Many of the current relations grew out of the east-german closeness. By far not all, west germany even received gas/oil during the cold war. But it got much more after 1989.
Does that excuse any of it, especially the support of russia after their annexation of crimea? Nope. I just think it's important to understand context and motivations, and a "cheap energy" just doesn't offer that.
[deleted] t1_ixxx0lu wrote
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butterhoscotch t1_ixy97q1 wrote
The economic sanctions are clearly impacting the wealthy.
porncrank t1_ixyeuon wrote
There are plenty of rich and powerful people that care only about business and will sweep this all under the rug as soon as possible. We must not let them.
YouGottaJump t1_iy1bp5g wrote
Who "we"? You're a random nobody who can't do shit to prevent it.
Gluca23 t1_ixyhi8u wrote
The same who have normal relations with China.
PumpkinManGuy t1_ixyeakb wrote
Once the war ends, everybody and their mother will be calling to normalize.
YourOverlords t1_ixyiu9u wrote
Also, when have relations with Russia ever been "normal"?
DesignerAny t1_ixyqyh5 wrote
i guess, almost everybody in EU except the Baltiks and Poland. Behind the scenes
VikKarabin t1_ixyxelv wrote
Once hostilities end you'll be surprised how many pragmatists there will be.
People remember all the pain and alll the shame, but corporations always seek profit - that will be the motivation for lobbying normalizing the relationship.
Hopefully by then russia will be bent over to the point that any business relationship with her will constitute plain sodomy.
KatsumotoKurier t1_ixzjxp3 wrote
Those with no real values and dollar signs in their eyes.
Gelezinis__Vilkas t1_iy0mjj0 wrote
Quite a few of Europe Parliamentarians.
[deleted] t1_iy0p7vw wrote
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Novabella t1_iy0td1l wrote
Paid Russian puppets, and people addicted to the status quo. Likely the same people that couldn't put aside their inconveniences for a bit during COVID's height. They're terrified of the world changing and progressing without them.
EnteringSectorReddit t1_iy0wkua wrote
Any corporation that profited from these ties?
EU defense companies sell a ton of shit to Russia even after 2014.
EU gas-dependent industries are HOOKED on cheap natural gas from Russia.
Almost whole world buys fertilizers from Russia. Because no one else can produce it cheap without cheap natural gas.
And of course, oil.
There is a TON of businesses and lobbyist that want Ukraine to surrender and resume trade ties with Russia.
zenzukai t1_ixyotdz wrote
Always remember who is holding the leashes. Money is the source of all evil
Xaxxon t1_ixzmev9 wrote
Once the war is over things should return somewhat. Russian people are still people.
PubliusDeLaMancha t1_ixzfesq wrote
Hopefully every single diplomat and the entire State Department of every country?
We can only hope the people directly involved in negotiations desire peace, as opposed to reddits obsession with dead soldiers
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