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history_fan40 t1_j6djjdo wrote

Reply to comment by vkstu in Ukraine: ‘Fast-track’ talks underway for missiles, planes by bluelotus214

You’re placing a subjective positive value on existence. Even for the species, if it didn’t exist, none of its members would have had to suffer (they by definition suffer). Lower numbers also means less of them are suffering (which by definition is the case), and I think you may hold a different view on this than me, but I subjectively view suffering as bad. It’s not objective that existence is good.

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vkstu t1_j6dldcn wrote

We've been over this before. You're equating some hardship to suffering because by definition hardship is suffering. Yes, yet you fail to see that there are also joyful moments where for example they get to enjoy food, family, etcetera. Ergo, they may not in total, be suffering. If one argues that because they experience some hardship they therefore are suffering, I'll put forward that because they experience some joy, they are therefore joyous. It's nonsensical. It has nothing to do about subjectivity, you're using a false representation of what is, only looking at one side of the equation and therefore reaching an incomplete conclusion.

I'm not placing any subjective positive value on existance. Existance by its very nature is existing, ending such existance is a negative to said existance. That's objective.

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history_fan40 t1_j6dmaqz wrote

I’m not saying there’s no positives, I’m just saying there is suffering. This suffering wouldn’t have been there if they hadn’t existed, and they also would have not desired or cared about these positives either.

Sure, ceasing to exist is negative to existence, but that doesn’t make it objectively a negative thing.

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vkstu t1_j6dmrhe wrote

> Sure, ceasing to exist is negative to existence, but that doesn’t make it objectively a negative thing.

That makes no sense. Unless you view it from a universe perspective again, which isn't the point.

> I’m not saying there’s no positives, I’m just saying there is suffering. This suffering wouldn’t have been there if they hadn’t existed, and they also would have not desired or cared about these positives either.

Nor would there be joy if they hadn't existed. You're still arguing that existing is suffering, while existing is or can be joyous as well if not more so.

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history_fan40 t1_j6dn8br wrote

> makes no sense

It does. Existence is not necessarily a positive.

> existing is suffering

It is. You’re saying it’s not always net suffering, but that is irrelevant to this discussion. I’m pointing out that there will always be suffering in life, by definition. Whether the things one considers positives outweigh that suffering in that person’s opinion is subjective.

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vkstu t1_j6dnqpn wrote

> It does. Existance is not necessarily a positive.

Is 1 a positive?

> I’m pointing out that there will always be suffering in life, by definition.

It isn't, you fail to realize one needs to look at a net equation, is there more suffering than joy. You only focus on the suffering part. I can very much argue and focus solely on the joy part and then say that life is joyful and suffering is irrelevant to this discussion. It's creating an argument that denies one part that is very much integral to existing (as is suffering).

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history_fan40 t1_j6duyv4 wrote

> Is 1 a positive

Sure, but existence can also be a -1, it’s not a simple binary.

> is there more suffering than joy

Sometimes.

I’m not denying that joy can be present in a life, but suffering is always present, and quite frankly it’s all unnecessary.

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vkstu t1_j6dw2tu wrote

> Sure, but existence can also be a -1, it’s not a simple binary.

It cannot, that makes zero sense. You can't have -1 peoples on the planet for example. Or -1 planets. You can have 9-1=8 planets however. But not 1-2=-1 planet.

> I’m not denying that joy can be present in a life, but suffering is always present, and quite frankly it’s all unnecessary.

Funny how you are here arguing suffering apparently is an objective truth and an universal constant, is it not? Do you seriously not see the paradox of that statement?

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