TracyMorganFreeman

t1_jc8h6zf wrote

>Sure, that's a lot of money and the number can also be true. However,that's weighted against quadrillions of government income.

No it isn't. It's *unfunded* liabilities. It's taking into account current government income trends. It's speaking to insolvent programs for people *who current exist* for which there is no funding to speak of in the future.

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t1_jc7dxxx wrote

Except it isn't a false analogy simply because it doesn't have all the qualities of a Ponzi scheme.

Thinking analogies are lazy is misunderstanding their purpose. Analogies are the very means of illustrating a concept by means of comparison.

Ponzi schemes are inherently unsustainable, but they're not inherently forced.

I can have objectives to it on forced participation grounds too, but I wouldn't call it a ponzi scheme to do so.

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t1_jc792om wrote

Which fallacy would that be?

It's not a material difference, because the problematic element I'm referring to is unsustainability, not whether it's fraudulent or not.

It's like saying "well the police unjustifiably killing someone isnt murder because they have qualified immunity and murder means an unlawful killing", completely ignoring what informs what the definition of murder is.

It's just sophistry.

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t1_jc5r5pa wrote

>But everybody knows why it made the trade off and it wasn’t intentionally deceptive

No, it was sold as individual workers contributing to their retirement later on, which isn't how it works.

>Is the intention of social security to invest money? Is it being intentionally deceptive paying out benefits from tax revenue?

It's *not a progressive redistribution program either*.

>Obviously. Ponzi schemes are fraudulent. Social security isn’t fraudulent

That's a legal distinction, not a structural one.

>That’s not fraudulent.

Yeah it's just a ponzi scheme in all but name.

Do you not see how you are fixated on the part that isn't required of a ponzi scheme, and ignoring the very argument being made that it is structured by one? You are wishing to maintain a rhetorical air about it, and avoid the actual argument.

Economic bubbles aren't fraudulent either, but they're *also ponzi schemes*

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t1_jc5jsil wrote

No, it's a ponzi scheme. Calling it a tradeoff by society doesn't preclude it from being a ponzi scheme.

If it took your money and actually invested it in something, then I wouldn't call it a ponzi scheme.

I take issue with forced participation, but that doesn't mean all forced participations are ponzi schemes.

Think of it this way: if it's not a ponzi scheme, then you wouldn't need to increase the rate or the cap to keep it solvent.

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t1_jc5elkn wrote

No need to be deceptive when you're forcing people to contribute, and the degree of contribution can be manipulated well after "investors" have committed to a particular contribution.

All you have to do is say it's for their own good.

The analogy is the way it's structured. Along that dimension of comparison it's perfectly apt.

Economic bubbles are a form of ponzi schemes too in the way they are structured.

Social security is a ponzi scheme in all the important ways that it make it so. They are unsustainable because they don't actually produce anything.

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t1_jc525na wrote

I'm suggesting a system that is effectively a ponzi scheme probably isn't the most sustainable.

Then again other countries have higher retirement ages and much hire contribution rates for pensions(as in the 20+%, with Italy being at 33%), so maybe the problem is the US trying to get something from far less than other more sustainable systems.

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