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SufficientTicket t1_j1b3akd wrote

While the emphasis on the training is fine and the rationale makes sense, you won’t make experts of police in one week/40-hour session of “CIT Training.”

The training is no where near where it needs to be to accomplish that much in that short of time. Licensed social workers requires a full time curriculum at a university to meet CT standards and even then that’s no guarantee of success. The state would benefit by increasing its budget into social work and creating a stronger 24 hour response system that can work in conjunction with law enforcement.

I have taken CIT, and had the unfortunate pleasure to sit through a few other sessions afterwards and it appears to be all the same. Very smart people (experts in their fields) just telling a room full of cops what a condition is and not how to handle it.

And due in large to the gaps in resources we currently have, it usually means we have to commit whoever we’re dealing with to a hospital for a mental evaluation (if the circumstance rises to that) or else try to find a hotline for them to call. Even the the large consensus from the former is that the hospital discharges shortly after because they aren’t an “immediate threat” per the doc in charge of the ER and/or the latter the person tells us the hotline was useless for their particular circumstance which often requires multiple sessions and adjustments over weeks/months/years to fully sort out.

We’d be better off funneling that training time and budget for cops to fund defensive tactics and martial arts training like BJJ, and/or as I said to enhance the states response to mental health outside of police.

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AhbabaOooMaoMao t1_j1bl4sn wrote

>We’d be better off funneling that training time and budget for cops to fund defensive tactics and martial arts training like BJJ

Wtf are you talking about?

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SufficientTicket t1_j1blrdm wrote

The time and money spent on sending cops and resources to CIT is better spent elsewhere, such as teaching cop restraint and fighting techniques that focus on deescalation by means of grappling and holds

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AhbabaOooMaoMao t1_j1bnkb0 wrote

Okay, I suppose to see your point. If it has to get physical, sure, Defendo (actual name of Canadian police standard (defensive) martial art) or whatever transfer-your-opponent's-motion sort of style, would probably be better than the current American police martial artform: neck grabs body slams and closed handed blows to our faces and heads-o.

But why not just start partnering police with social workers such as they're doing with great results in Willimantic, in conjunction with the Criminology college at ECSU? Don't need to send cops to school.

I don't know, policing will probably only get more violent and more lawless.

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SufficientTicket t1_j1brg5a wrote

It’s not the way you seem to think it is. Really at all. We work very well with the resources when they’re available, but it’s not up to us or our departments to make them available.

Our budgets are already stretched and the outside partnerships we form often don’t last because of staffing. I’ve personally seen social workers just walk off the job because of adverse conditions.

Year after year we see decreases in use of force incidences despite a rise in call volume and increase in crime recently.

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AhbabaOooMaoMao t1_j1c5806 wrote

Yes exactly. Maybe now the thing that needs to not last because of staffing is you.

Maybe we should take the money we're spending on all the cops referenced in this author's story who did fuck all, and give it to the social workers referenced in your post.

I bet they'd stick around if any social workers were cashing those six figure cop checks right?

The increase in call volume is mental health crisis and medical, and crime is down over all, now, as you well know.

I'm not saying we should ask police to do more with less as you seem to think. I'm saying they should do less with less.

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SufficientTicket t1_j1den0z wrote

I don’t get your first sentence.

Cops can’t do anything if they can’t find the person. And they also can only do what they’re legally compelled/trained to, or have resources for. Which is highly likely they didn’t have the training of a social worker or psychologist, and is also highly likely that there was no staffing or on call system in place at the time. We have both and still usually our only options are to clear the scene, pass along hotlines or to commit.

Six figure cops are far from the norm in almost every regard. When they exist it’s because of overtime/details funded usually by things like traffic grant or private companies. It also requires hundreds/ thousands of hours extra work. Not just forty hours a week.

I would like to see your sources for that. For us it’s simply not the case, even based off of the first few articles in google.FBI reports no increase in violent crime from 2021, however there was an increase from 2010 to 2020, and there has been no statistically significant decrease sense.

Locally that is simply not the case for major crimes. Hartford has had an increase in murders. Waterbury has had an increase in murders and shootings just to name a few.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/crime-rate-statistics

https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-and-information/ucr/nibrs

Those FBI stats also are specifically referencing violent crime which means person to person victimization, which person to person contact is substantially down since the pandemic. Property crime is on the rise nationally.

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AhbabaOooMaoMao t1_j1e05dd wrote

>I don’t get your first sentence.

You said those social worker programs don't last because they run out of staff and money. I'm saying it's time for police to be deprived of staff and money. The social workers are the jobs we need to retain, not the police.

>Cops can’t do anything if they can’t find the person. And they also can only do what they’re legally compelled/trained to, or have resources for. Which is highly likely they didn’t have the training of a social worker or psychologist, and is also highly likely that there was no staffing or on call system in place at the time. We have both and still usually our only options are to clear the scene, pass along hotlines or to commit.

Buddy, it's like you're getting right up to the edge of the point and then missing it completely.

If this mother had called the police and said he may be involved in carrying drugs across state lines, how would this have ended differently?

That's the problem. They would have sent the fucking SWAT team with virtually unlimited budgets for military equipment and training and would have stopped the kid cold.

>Six figure cops are far from the norm in almost every regard. When they exist it’s because of overtime/details funded usually by things like traffic grant or private companies. It also requires hundreds/ thousands of hours extra work. Not just forty hours a week.

They exist in every town and especially with the state, where it hurts everyone the most.

>I would like to see your sources for that. For us it’s simply not the case, even based off of the first few articles in google.FBI reports no increase in violent crime from 2021, however there was an increase from 2010 to 2020, and there has been no statistically significant decrease sense.

My source for crime being down is the state police's own numbers for 2021.

>Locally that is simply not the case for major crimes. Hartford has had an increase in murders. Waterbury has had an increase in murders and shootings just to name a few.

Yes, it was like a 20% jump in Hartford in 2021 from there being so few in 2020 and there being two additional murders in year 2021.

>Property crime is on the rise nationally.

Great. The category of crime police are least likely to solve is up (unless we're talking about retail theft, in which case you send the SWAT team right out again (if they aren't too busy directing traffic in full kit)). Again, right up to the point and then completely miss.

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snackdrag t1_j1da3yb wrote

No 50 year old cop is going to risk injury fighting hand to hand, comply or they move up the continuum of force.

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SufficientTicket t1_j1dccdo wrote

Age has yes to be any significant factor in any of our use of force reports and the most common action remains physical restraints/hand to hand techniques.

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Ordinary_Guitar_5074 t1_j1bzmy1 wrote

They’ll just spend the whole time telling dumb stories and talking about “excited delirium.”

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SufficientTicket t1_j1dc5j9 wrote

Who are you referring to? And why? Are you denying the existence of excited delirium? Because the scientific community isn’t

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Ordinary_Guitar_5074 t1_j1dpt0y wrote

“Excited delirium is not recognized by the World Health Organization, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, and not listed as a medical condition in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or International Classification of Diseases. Dr. Michael Baden, a specialist in investigating deaths in custody, describes excited delirium as "a boutique kind of diagnosis created, unfortunately, by many of my forensic pathology colleagues specifically for persons dying when being restrained by law enforcement".”

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Ordinary_Guitar_5074 t1_j1drqqs wrote

Also most of the time when the police receive training in reaction to a bad incident the training usually focuses on how to get away with doing thing thing instead of how to avoid it. For instance in CT when the big thing going on was police officers demanding to see pistol permits without reasonable suspicion they didn’t teach them to stop violating people’s rights, they taught them to create the reasonable suspicion out of thin air.

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SufficientTicket t1_j1dstxu wrote

From your assuredly vast experience and expertise in law enforcement?

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Ordinary_Guitar_5074 t1_j1ewba1 wrote

Only the police can judge the police because only they understand right? Ha.

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Ordinary_Guitar_5074 t1_j1ewqr1 wrote

I can get a good look at a ribeye by sticking my head up a cow’s ass but I’d rather take the butcher’s word on it.

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SufficientTicket t1_j1f0l6b wrote

So you’re saying butchers know more about meat so therefore police are generally the experts on police?

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