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dominus_aranearum t1_iy90q3b wrote

Reply to comment by metarchaeon in Garbage Disposal wired directly into Dishwasher - fixing wiring and adding outlets by TonyFugginMontana

>As to you wiring, you don't need to run the 12-3 wire to the switch, just wrap the ends of the white wire (that you have capped on both end) with black tape and use it.

No longer up to code. All switches must have a neutral.

While it will technically work, might as well wire it properly if it's being done at all.

Switches with lighting loads now require the neutral. Wouldn't apply in OP's case.

Edit: I was wrong. 404.2(C)(7)

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metarchaeon t1_iy91mjf wrote

Where do you connect a neutral to a switch? Honest question.

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TonyFugginMontana OP t1_iy94eo3 wrote

That's just it, it doesn't connect anywhere, it just gets capped. Apparently to accommodate the possibility of future retrofitting for "smart" switches, which do require a neutral, per other comment above.

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Masterandslave1003 t1_iy9gjct wrote

Ha, I bought some smart switch for my old house and learned this the hard way! The neutral apparently carries a tiny bit of current that the smart switch uses to keep its settings of something like that.

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WittyMonikerGoesHere t1_iy9h7vq wrote

Believe it or not, the neutral carries exactly the same current as the hot, when connected in a circuit.

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KapJ1coH t1_iy9kyiv wrote

Wait a second, if I don't have a neutral, can I just connect hot to both hot and neutral terminal? I'm not very knowledgeable in jome electricity so I might be wrong.

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bluGill t1_iy9og18 wrote

This is no longer allowed by code, but it used to be that instead of a neutral people would use the neutral as the switched hot side and no neutral would go to the switch at all. This saves some money, and copper is not cheap.

Hot and neutral go from the breaker to the outlet, the neutral wire is connected to the neutral size of the outlet. Hot is connected to a second wire that goes to the switch, then the neutral from that second line is connected to the other side of the switch and then to the hot side of the outlet. When doing this you were supposed to paint the white wire black (or red) so everyone knew it wasn't neutral, but often this wasn't done.

This is not connecting hot and neutral together. It is taking a wire that is normally used for neutral and using it for hot in a situation where the neutral wire wouldn't be used anyway.

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emcturkeyshirt t1_iy9rzxm wrote

That is up on black back on white rule…. And there is no neutral involved. You’re making the white wire hot……………..hence phasing it black.

Switching a neutral will never work…. In you single phase home…. It just won’t really work.

On a three phase system, well breaking or switching a neutral will create a dangerously unbalanced load. Possibly resulting in blowing up your lights and electronics.

Don’t ever switch a neutral. You can use the white wire as hot in one specific scenario. But it is NOT a neutral.

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WittyMonikerGoesHere t1_iy9p6vq wrote

On a normal switch, there is no neutral terminal. The three connections are for line in, line out, and ground. Neutrals are bridged in a standard wiring situation.

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KapJ1coH t1_iy9z144 wrote

Oh I was talking about a smart switch, sorry if I wasn't clear.

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MeshColour t1_iy9jt6e wrote

Believe it or not, a "dumb" switch uses no power, so has no requirement to be hooked up to the neutral. And yes zero would equal zero, which is why neutral isn't required for the switch itself

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WittyMonikerGoesHere t1_iy9ouir wrote

Not to operate, no. Some are saying codes require it now. A "dumb" switch only interrupts the circuit. You could wire the neutrals to the switch instead of the hots, and it would work exactly the same. Shouldn't because changing a light bulb would then carry the possibility of electrocution, but could.

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emcturkeyshirt t1_iy9ro1b wrote

Believe it or not, if you were to break a neutral or switch it…… bad things will happen.

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spyrosj t1_iy9k6zw wrote

Not an electrician but I think the reason the neutral is there so that the connected smart switch can complete the circuit and get power. An inline switch just breaks the electrical connection. And like /u/WittyMonikerGoesHere, the neutral carries the same load as the hot since its necessary to complete the circuit.

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hardMarble t1_iy9lzpi wrote

100%, the switch's brains couldn't be on without having some current go to the light, if there is no neutral in the box

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bluGill t1_iy9oo1f wrote

There are dumb switches with built in lights (expensive, but I recommend them) that really should have a neutral.

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[deleted] t1_iy9vkle wrote

[deleted]

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bluGill t1_iybvthl wrote

Unless the switch has a neutral so they don't have to leak power down what they pretend is an off circuit.

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I_AM_NOT_A_WOMBAT t1_iy9cf9t wrote

When you use any kind of specialty switch, like (obviously not relevant here) a motion sensor, timer, etc. a neutral is best. There are motion sensors that pull a bit of current through the circuit itself, but they are terrible at best and often don't work with LED lighting, which is also code now.

I suspect the code mentioned is meant to prevent shoddy sparkies from lazily grabbing neutrals from nearby circuits, which can result in shared neutrals (ask me how I know this).

I can't honestly think of a reason why you'd use anything other than a dumb toggle switch for an under-sink cutoff for a DW/Disposal, but it's probably easier and safer to just say "all switch locations need a neutral" than to specify "except under kitchen cabinets where the switch is only used for an appliance cutoff".

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the_pinguin t1_iy9j5cf wrote

Motion sensors use the ground wire to complete a circuit in the absence of a neutral wire. It's not ideal, but it does work.

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I_AM_NOT_A_WOMBAT t1_iy9muy0 wrote

True, but older homes often don't have ground wires either. Ours built in the late 50's didn't have grounds.

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the_pinguin t1_iy9naj8 wrote

Oh I know. My House was built in 1900 according to records, but I suspect earlier.

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emcturkeyshirt t1_iy9r7uc wrote

Never switch a neutral.

However, with the newer electronic switches (dimmers, timers, remote switches…) a neutral will be required.

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iRamHer t1_iy9jv4m wrote

all switches do NOT require a neutral, not in any code I'm familiar with. your definition of properly is half baked and people reading should factor this when considering your comments.

while smart switches/ thermostats will require what acts as a neutral, switches in general do not. and depending on wiring, is completely unnecessary as to use the neutral you'd be doing major rewiring anyways. next you'll say we have to run a traveler or 2 to every box requiring 3 or 4 conductors when 2 suffice just in case, ignoring the need for breakers. some things do NOT need the ability for a smart switch due to safety, and thus neutral.

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Clcsed t1_iy9pp3z wrote

Switches do not require a neutral. Only light switch boxes require one to be available.

Keyword light. Not switch.

Edit: NEC 404.2C is what you're trying to quote... Other people alsoprovided the exact code in the comments here.

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iRamHer t1_iy9qb4y wrote

you missed the point and you're wrong. light switches complete a circuit when on, they find a neutral [or return] when on, when off they interupt that return, whether that's a correct or incorrect wiring method can vary.

an always on device requires a neutral OR alternative power. this means smart switches, smart thermostats, automated function devices.

if this were a multi phase wiring install that COULD differ.

please don't input incorrect or half right information. yes lights get the neutral passed to them, but convention has changed if you intend to automate. you're fully right if this were 1990 again.

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rivalarrival t1_iy9ps8h wrote

Can you cite this? The only reference I've found is to 404.2(C), which clearly specifies that it applies to switches with lighting loads. A garbage disposal is certainly not a "lighting load".

Further, there is specific exception in 404.2(C) for "receptacle" loads, which is what OP is trying to set up.

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who-really-cares t1_iy9qmcl wrote

Isn’t an exception to this when the switch box and wiring is accessible? So unless op is moving switch to wall it’s unnecessary?

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dominus_aranearum t1_iy9r0gb wrote

I'm wrong. Not a lighting load anyhow.

404.2(C)(7)

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who-really-cares t1_iy9r8qw wrote

Just found the code for anyone interested.

404.2(C) Switches Controlling Lighting Loads.

The grounded circuit conductor for the controlled lighting circuit shall be provided at the location where switches control lighting loads that are supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit for other than the following:

(1) Where conductors enter the box enclosing the switch through a raceway, provided that the raceway is large enough for all contained conductors, including a grounded conductor

(2) Where the box enclosing the switch is accessible for the installation of an additional or replacement cable without removing finish materials

(3) Where snap switches with integral enclosures comply with 300.15(E)

(4) Where a switch does not serve a habitable room or bathroom

(5) Where multiple switch locations control the same lighting

load such that the entire floor area of the room or space is visible from the single or combined switch locations

(6) Where lighting in the area is controlled by automatic means

(7) Where a switch controls a receptacle load.

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