Submitted by rxinquestion t3_10kb3vg in DIY
My new build 200amp panel is full and I want to combine a few CH AF/GF 15amp breakers into tandems to make room. Would these breaker be fine to replace them with? Or do I have to find arc fault tandems which seem expensive.
Edited: included current panel photos
Breakers should work but I'd recommend just installing a sub panel. It's going to save you down the road for new circuits.
Wouldn't installing a small subpanel be easier? Or at least less expensive than replacing AFCI breakers.
If you get non-afci tandems then it's definitely not easier and cheaper to do that but the sub panel is the smarter move.
But, if it's a new enough house to have an AFCI circuit, now you're below code unless you're installing an AFCI outlet on each circuit, and those aren't cheap either.
Ahh you're right, I didn't realize AFCI breakers are required these days. That's whack lol.
My house is 2 years old, and apparently now combination GFCI/AFCI breakers are a thing. I have a feeling I’d have to sell a kidney if one of those has to be replaced.
They’re only $60 a piece for 15 amp single pole, not crazy expensive for what they are
Until you notice that plain breakers are like $15.
$6
Sure, but you don’t have to use expensive outlets downstream, plus added safety if you do decide to. It’s a no brainer to spend the extra money on those breakers!
Plus you get all those awesome afci nuisance trips! Who doesn’t love having to go all the way to the basement because you plugged something in wrong?
I mean, technically you can replace them with regular breakers. Just don't get your house inspected if you're doing it lol.
...or file an insurance claim based on an electrical fire. Automatic denial and good luck finding another underwriter. They put that shit in a database and share it.
If they're AF/GF breakers, that's "probably" for a reason. You'd have to check local codes and see if it's required for a given circuit (if you're subject to modern codes, they're required in lots of places). If it is required, you'd have to put GFCI outlets in, and you'd maybe have to switch your main breaker out for an AF one? (Not cheap!)
I'd look long and hard at the actual charging rate you need. 60A is big and could push the load calculation for your panel over it's limit, especially if you've got a big AC or anything like that. Have you done a load calculation (you better, if you're adding a 60A load)?
Most people charge their cars overnight, and even 20-30A (at 240V) is more than plenty for that, even doing large amounts of driving per day.
[deleted]
It probably won't be to code if you slap in those mini breakers, because they put in the AFCI or combo AF/GF. Your homeowners won't cover you if something happened.
Your real problem is I don't think you have enough overhead to slap another 60A in there. You might be close to limit if 200A service. You might want to check, but I'm the summer of you have 50A to car charger and two 30A A/C units running, and you have say electronics lighting, fridge. Then you turn on stove, it might exceed your service.
The better option might be to put in a sub panel of a 100A double, and move the A/C breakers to it and add car charger there in a sub panel with 8 slots.
I doubt they’ve ever even pulled much over 100A. If they have a smart meter they can get their max load values from the power company.
Realistically, you should add a sub panel.
Otherwise, you cannot replace AFCI/GFCI breakers with non AFCI/GFCI tandems. I'm not even sure Eaton makes a tandem with AFCI/GFCI capabilities.
That said, I'm honestly surprised that having a separate breaker for your smoke alarms passed inspection. They should go on a common circuit so that way if the circuit trips, you know that your smokies aren't functional. A main lighting circuit is common. So, you could free up one space there if there isn't anything else of concern on that circuit.
You could also combine two bedrooms. Not sure if the entire bedroom (outlets and lighting) is on one circuit or what, but it's odd to have them separated that way. Are the bathrooms combined with the bedrooms completely? Or just the lights? Code doesn't allow for bathroom outlets to share with any other fixtures other than other bathrooms, and even then it is limited to counter top outlets only. Only way bathroom lights and counter top outlets can be on the same circuit is if that bathroom is the only thing on that circuit.
Additionally, you could combine the dishwasher and disposal into one circuit. I'm not a fan of it but as long as it's a 20A circuit, it's allowed.
If you decided to combine anything, you should really understand load balancing before doing so. Adding 60A to one side may or may not be a good idea.
So what do you pull at full load as is.
Reminder tandom breakers are only going to be one leg of power.
Is your charger a 115 or 208/230?
On max load, I’m drawing 41A based on data from my provider. That’s mainly peak summer here in TX
At max load, the house is pulling 41A, peak summer based on provider data. Installing the Tesla wall charger that will continuously draw 48a on a 60amp breaker.
41 amps between two AC units and the rest of your house? Highly doubt thats correct. Its also the inrush current that you have to consider. Your AC units can draw 5 to 7 times their rated amperage on startup. Add that with your charger and everything else in the house and you can trip your main.
This is completely incorrect. Breakers are rated/sized to allow for this. And it’s not 6/7 times, you rate the breaker 250% of rated load, for most motors.
Correct they are sized (amp rating) to allow for inrush current on the entire panel but this person is adding a 60 amp circuit for a charger thats going to be drawing 50 amps. Add in all appliances and other devices in the house plus 2 ac units.
Breakers can handle inrush current of startup for a split second period of time. The two ac units, if starting up at the exact time could cause it to trip. It does happen, albeit not all the time. The 5-7 times the rated amperage is based off the nameplate data of the ac unit, not the breaker. Dont know how you thought i meant that.
I dont know what your point was other than to try to say I dont know what Im talking about. Sounds like you know enough to be dangerous.
As a master electrician and an EET, your right, I do know enough to be dangerous, but I also understand residential load calculations, and that not everything turns on at once. If those are the ideas you are trying to scare people with, then every house in the world would trip under full load of all the breakers, but that’s not how it works/calculated, but you would know that if you were an electrician. Just saying 🤷
Check your panel diagram for compatible breaker types. It will also tell you which/ how many breaker slots are able to be replaced with tandems. If you upload a pic of your diagram I could help more.
You might have better luck with square d or Bryant af- tandems and depending on your CH panel, they might be compatible.
These CH breakers should be compatible with SquareD Homeline (HOM) breakers (make sure they say HOM and not QO). Eaton breakers would work too, but i'm not sure they have as many tandom options as square d.
I can't tell if your panel is compatible with tandems yet though. Can you show me the picture diagram that should be right next to all this? it'll have a bunch of squiggly lines beneath a main breaker. slots that have 2 squiggly lines instead of 1 are compatible with tandems.
Sometimes it'll tell you how many breaker slots there are and if it says 20/30 slots then 10 bottom slots can be tandem, or 20/40 means all slots can be tandem.
My panel sticker doesn’t come with that diagram. Only thing next to it is a door directory for labeling circuits.
Also the 60amp car charger for the Tesla isn't always necessary. I plug mine into a regular garage outlet overnight and have never needed the lvl 2 charger.
level 1 charges ~7miles every hour (84 miles if you charge 12 hours overnight, which is more than most people's daily commute)
60 amp level 2 chargers ~36 miles every hour (full charge pretty much guaranteed)
Yeah it’s my wife’s car and she commutes far each day. RT is probably around 150mi. Don’t want her having to rely on SC if she can it topped off here reliably every night.
Word. you might want to go the sub panel route. Might be beneficial to hire an electrician
You’ve gotten a lot of advice, so this might get drowned out: you cannot replace AFCI or GFCI breakers with tandem ones that are not AF/GF. You have 4 single pole non-AF/GF breakers throughout the panel that you can replace with tandems. Since they are not next to each other it would require you to move around many breakers in order to get a 2 pole space. Not a big deal, but it will be the last circuit you ever add. Your best bet is to install a sub panel right next to your main panel, if you have room on the wall.
You'll likely need to upgrade your panel and service to your house. Adding a 60amp circuit on an already full panel is going to probably put you over the main circuit breaker limit, guessing you have 200 amp service.
You have 2 air conditioners. Your entire house lighting and outlets. Utilities (washer, dryer, dishwasher).
Adding a 60 amp circuit is probably going to be too much.
Hire an electrician to make sure you dont overload your panel an risk tripping the main breaker. You dont want to trip your circuit breakers and bust your 200 amp main. That'll be an expensive fix.
Dual breakers are common. I have lots of them
It depends on if your busbar is made to use tandem breakers, it should be, but that’s what you need to check
You need to jungle a few circuit around. Breaker 7&15 paired up on a tandem and 8,20 on a tandem breaker. Then that frees up two spots, which you will have to juggle around to get them next to each other, then add a 2pole whatever for a sub panel. Then go from there. As an electrician, I f’in hate arc faults, at least gen 1, these look like gen 3, but they are code. Also something you may want to bring up to your builder and you electrical authority, when installing a new panel, it is required to leave two spare circuit spots (next to each other) by code (in Ontario). If this is code in your area, then they will have to do the work. That’s the route I would go first. But if that doesn’t work do what I mentioned above.
Thank you for your reply. I have a electrician in the neighborhood I reached out to, to come by and take a look. I’ll update this as I complete the work.
It looks like you could possibly do the 2 furnace circuits on the one side and the 2 GFCI outlet circuit on the other to open a duplex spot.
All the other 120 circuits appear to be afci.
Otherwise maybe you could get a 15-60-60-15 quad breaker and only do the one side.(I know square D has them that style)
But if you have the physical space nearby to add a sub panel that may be a better option long term.
Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll look into moving those around and see if I can manage.
Do not do this. Please heed the advice of the other commenters and their reasons explained.
Ignoring everyone else and following this poor advice is confirmation bias.
Don't do it stupid. Do it right.
Thank you. I’ll heed your advice and seek an electrician to give me a straight answer to my needs. As much as I love DIYing stuff, this might be something I’ll chalk up to beyond my abilities.
How Did you fill up a 200 amp breaker box??
I have a new house with a 200 amp box. By code it seems every room outlets, lights etc have separate breakers. It fills the whole box. It's stupid in my opinion. I also hate arc fault breakers too.
Save some space and go 40amp
choomguy t1_j5picvx wrote
If you don't know, hire and electrician. You are only allowed so many tandems by code. We just did a reno where they put the 60a charger circuit in the main panel, so we did not have room for the new reno circuits. My electrician pulled the car circuit out, and ran a line to a new sub panel for it. Which freed up space in the main panel. The idea being having room for any future circuits in the main panel, while feeding the car circuit and any future basement or garage circuits from the sub panel. If they get a second electric car, they are set up for an easy solution. My electrician only charged $800 for the sub panel and moving the existing care circuit.