Submitted by eltruteht t3_11yt2py in Pennsylvania
2023 Gas tax per gallon: Ohio- $.385 NY- $.1815 NJ- $.421 Delaware-$.23 Pennsylvania - $.611
Seems few citizens of the commonwealth find this troubling.
Comments
BFreeFranklin t1_jd9bcav wrote
I dunno, I seem to recall one or two people complaining about gas prices recently
HomicidalHushPuppy t1_jd9cnu4 wrote
We all know it, but 1) our government doesn't care, and/or 2) people keep voting the same politicians in
mcvoid1 t1_jd9d7o5 wrote
Ohio, Delaware, and NJ are flat as pancakes and don't have the road challenges we do with the geography and climate coming together into a perfect storm of road maintenance. Also they have fewer cars. (Well Ohio has slightly more registered vehicles, but fewer people, so fewer cars on the road at any given time)
NY has similar climate / geography / number of drivers but it gets to be subsidized by the largest and richest friggin city in the whole damn country.
Socketfusion t1_jdb6xdo wrote
I'm a civil engineer, specifically geotechnical, who has done a lot of work in the area. PA isn't really special. Many PA roads were just built shitty, so they require more maintenance, which costs more money in the long run, which means money is drained on maintenance that could have been spent on actually building the roads right in the first place. All those other states have their own challenges when it comes to road construction. Go ahead and build a road in Delaware when groundwater is six inches below grade. See how easy that is. Just look at border transissions. The climate and terrain don't typically change because you are one mile or so either side of the state line. But road conditions definitely do.
We have built pretty good roads through much more adverse terrain and climate than you will find in PA. We've only been building paved roads for a few thousand years, but I'm pretty sure we can overcome the climate and terrain challenges offered by PA if it was done right from the start.
ewyorksockexchange t1_jdar12z wrote
To add to this, PA has more miles of waterways than any state other than Alaska, so we have a shit ton of tiny bridges that drive road costs through the goddamn roof. Seriously, the number of small creeks and streams in this state is staggering.
Also worth noting that PA does not put general fund dollars into transportation infrastructure, so every dollar that goes into roads, bridges, etc. comes from the gas tax and other transportation-related fees that go to the motor license fund and grant programs.
Total state and local tax burden in PA is comparable to other states in our region, but road users get hit harder at the pump and notice. If that funding came from an extra .5% of income tax instead of gas taxes, people wouldn’t bitch as much.
Wuz314159 t1_jd99oee wrote
- The Netherlands: $3.51 /gallon
- Italy: $3.14 /gallon
- Finland: $3.13 /gallon
- Greece: $3.02 /gallon
Cheapest:
- Hungary: $1.49 /gallon
somberblurb t1_jdb2j0q wrote
Woah, I thought you were quoting prices, but those are the taxes!
Stonecutter_12-83 t1_jd9bkny wrote
Holy crap I've never heard of this. Wow
eltruteht OP t1_jd9d2sg wrote
My kids don’t get an attaboy for getting Cs by telling me all the kids that got Fs.
[deleted] t1_jd9h97w wrote
[deleted]
Hopeful_Scholar398 t1_jd9digy wrote
They should. It's called a curve
eltruteht OP t1_jd9e374 wrote
You don’t understand curves or lack reading comprehension.
Hopeful_Scholar398 t1_jd9m1w0 wrote
It honestly might be both lady. I'll let you get back to your super important reddit post. The one that's gonna make a difference. This one that's gonna change the way we do things around here!
Maumee-Issues t1_jd9ugr9 wrote
Yeah. I mean roads are still underfunded in each of those states (general nationally). The gas tax only covers about half (if not less) of road repair costs, and that's with us already under funding repairs. This also ignores pa pulling money out of the gas fund too.
Generally I just think it's difficult for states to raise the gas tax politically, but those states find money in other ways. It isn't just the gas tax. Also I just don't like the gas tax, pay by mileage would be much better. As long as we find away to repair (or reduce) our roads.
yankeeman9 t1_jdan4nc wrote
Our sky high gas tax, brought to you by the Republican former governor, Tom Corbett.
ThisBerserkTextBone t1_jd9pe1b wrote
I don't drive but I walk. The bike/ pull over lanes are crumbling away where I live forcing me to walk in the car lane to move forward.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jd9ilo3 wrote
I don't know why it should be considered troubling in and of itself. It could only be 'troubling' if roadway maintenance and construction were particularly cost-inefficient in Pennsylvania or if an excessive amount of work were being done. I am aware of the transfer of Motor License Fund revenues to the Pennsylvania State Police, but I believe that the most recent budgets have kept that in the vicinity of $ 500 million and I doubt that this accounts for the differential. There is also a question of other sources of revenue and use of federal funds.
If you insist upon lower the 'gas tax'^(*), then you must endorse a worse roadway maintenance and slower construction, a severe curtailment of new construction, some kind of miraculous 'efficiency' reform or a combination of the three. Highways are not cheap things and Pennsylvania is a large jurisdiction with some very trying weather and lots of things to bridge over.
^(*Pennsylvania does not, strictly speaking, have 'gas tax' in the sense of an) ^(ad valorem) ^(rate per gallon, but a tax upon the wholesale price of fuel, which is the cost paid by filling stations to their suppliers. Hence why Pennsylvania is) ^(listed by the American Petroleum Institute) ^(as having an excise tax of $ 0.)
Cute_Platypus_5989 t1_jd9o71t wrote
Crazy how 500 million dollars of miss appropriated dollars is no big deal. I bet you could fix a bridge or a road with that.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jda0u8o wrote
PennDoT's fiscal staff would certainly rather be rid of the transfer to the Pennsylvani State Police, which is a complaint that might conceivably have existed in some form since at least the fifties, but I mean to suggest that the transfer is not enough to account for the differential in tax rates.
The most recent Governor's Executive Budget shows that the Motor License Fund had revenues of $ 2.9 billion in fiscal year 2021-2022, (page 58) which the most recent year that actual revenues are available for, and that the Pennsylvania State Police received $ 0.5 billion from the Motor License Fund (page 565). So the State Police receive 17.7 % of Motor License Fund Revenues; that's a consequential amount, but I'm skeptical that it accounts for fuel taxes being so much higher than in neighboring states. (Governor Shapiro's budget calls for the PSP to receive only $ 400 million of Motor License Fund revenue for the coming fiscal year)
If the transfer were eliminated, it would need to be compensated for by some mixture of lowering PSP expenditures by more than a third, reducing other programs so that funding could be transferred to the PSP or introducing a new revenue source. It's not surprising that the General Assembly and Governor have neglected to make those choices for so long or that they should have relied upon a way to keep part of the PSP budget off the the General Fund's books.
Cute_Platypus_5989 t1_jda4xd9 wrote
Do you know what happens if you are in charge of the little league financial i.e. bank account and you decide to give the security guard 500$? That's right you are charged with a crime. Somehow if the state does the same thing but gives it to the police it is 100% ok. I guess in all honesty we are luck the thin blue line did not take it all. After all they are all that keeps Americans safe and free.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jda93cu wrote
It's not a crime, it's a policy and an long running one.
Article VIII § 11 (a) of the Constitution of Pennsylvania restricts, "proceeds from gasoline and other motor fuel excise taxes, motor vehicle registration fees and license taxes, operators' license fees and other excise taxes imposed on products used in motor transportation," to be, "used solely for construction, reconstruction, maintenance and repair of and safety on public highways and bridges and costs and expenses incident thereto." (Emphasis mine.)
Law enforcement patrols of highways seems easily construed as falling within the remit of the authorization to use motor vehicle revenues for, "safety on public highways," or even, "incident thereto." The practice has been in place for a long time. Governor Raymond P. Shafer's FY 1969 - 1970 Governor's Executive Budget refers expressly to this function such as on page 52 (actually page 60 of the file), where it states that the Motor License Fund, "finances State Police highway patrol operation."
Whether PSP highway safety operations cost half a billion dollars is another question and one that I imagine would be practically difficult to assess, much less implement a policy relative to. To some extent, recent administrations seem to have considered that it might not as the size of the transfer has been gradually reduced over the foregoing several years. Even if it is wholly eliminated that does not mean that difficult questions about the funds available PennDoT and the PSP will be avoided.
Cute_Platypus_5989 t1_jda9yen wrote
No I'm sure PSP cost over a billion. They get tax dollars from other social programs I am sure. It sure seems that we pay an awful lot For bridge's to fall down.
ewyorksockexchange t1_jdas6ys wrote
Not sure why this is downvoted, it’s completely accurate.
To add to this, PSP is solely responsible for all policing over 75% of PA geographic area (and around 50% of the state’s population). That’s a lot of traffic enforcement cost. I’m spitballing here, but given the compensation package the troopers enjoy, it’s not out of the question that payroll costs alone could be north of $200k per trooper annually, plus vehicles, maintenance, technology, overhead, etc. I believe the state police now have to actually prove enforcement costs to receive MLF dollars. While some creative accounting on their part is not out of the question, the costs they incur enforcing traffic rules for a full 3/4 of the state could certainly be in the hundreds of millions of dollars annually.
ArchaeoJones t1_jdah6ls wrote
How much of the $4.25 billion that was siphoned off for PSP could have been spent fixing the number of red flagged bridges in this state? You know, like the one in Pittsburgh that collapsed?
Yes, that amount was over 7 years, and amounts to just over $600 million a year. But the point of that money was to fix the states failing roads and bridges, not as a slush fund for the police.
If the money is not going to where it's supposed to, we shouldn't be paying it.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jdaiw0g wrote
>How much of the $4.25 billion that was siphoned off for PSP could have been spent fixing the number of red flagged bridges in this state? You know, like the one in Pittsburgh that collapsed?
I don't know; I'm neither a PennDoT budget analyst nor one of its engineers. I was making a narrow claim contrary to the original post of this thread that the transfer the PSP is not so large that it accounts for most of the tax differential between Pennsylvania and adjacent states.
>If the money is not going to where it's supposed to, we shouldn't be paying it.
At I have pointed out elsewhere, the section of the Commonwealth Constitution that restricts motor vehicle revenues includes highway safety, which would include PSP highway patrols, as among the permissible expenditures and these transfers have been going on for decades. Even if the transfers were abolished, they would need to be made up for by cutting PSP activity, cutting other programs supported by the General Fund to transfer their funding to the PSP or increases in revenue through new or higher fees and taxes.
ArchaeoJones t1_jdamqgt wrote
>At I have pointed out elsewhere, the section of the Commonwealth Constitution that restricts motor vehicle revenues
includes highway safety, which would include PSP highway patrols, as
among the permissible expenditures and these transfers have been going
on for decades. Even if the transfers were abolished, they would need
to be made up for by cutting PSP activity, cutting other programs
supported by the General Fund to transfer their funding to the PSP or
increases in revenue through new or higher fees and taxes.
No, it doesn't, and any belief it does is the same as in believing in faeries and unicorns, or just a straight inability to understand the English language.
The PSP was getting a handout from the Motor License Fund because towns were getting rid of their police forces and making PSP pick up the slack.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jdaonoi wrote
>No, it doesn't, and any belief it does is the same as in believing in faeries and unicorns, or just a straight inability to understand the English language.
The restriction of motor vehicle revenues to highway purposes is provided for by Article VIII § 11(a) of the Constitution of Pennsylvania.
This section provides that, "proceeds from gasoline and other motor fuel excise taxes, motor vehicle registration fees and license taxes, operators' license fees and other excise taxes imposed on products used in motor transportation... used solely for construction, reconstruction, maintenance and repair of and safety on public highways and bridges and costs and expenses incident thereto." (Emphasis mine)
Interpreting such funds being available for use to fund public safety as meaning that they may be used for law enforcement patrols on highways, thus transferred to the PSP, is a very reasonable interpretation of that language.
ArchaeoJones t1_jdaq8i4 wrote
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you have no idea what road safety really is.
That's inspections for roads and bridges and safety features like guard rails, electronic signs and plowing and salting.
Unfamiliar_Word t1_jdaubje wrote
It is almost certainly also law enforcement activity as ensuring public safety is, no matter how they might often fail to do so, a function of the police.
The earliest Pennsylvania budget that is available online is that for FY 1969 - 1970. On page 237 (345 of the file) in the section regarding the State Police, i shows an estimated expenditure of 25,403 for FY 1968-1969 and there are references to things like them receiving, "a Motor License Fund transfer for traffic patrol activities." So the transfer has been made for at least fifty five years and I would bet that it could be shown to go back as far as the creation of the Motor License fund in 1946 if the relevant documents were readily available.
What's more, prior to the current Pennsylvania State Police, there was briefly a separate Highway Patrol within the Department of Highways that was later merged with the State Police to form the Pennsylvania Motor Police, which were later renamed back to Pennsylvania State Police. In light of that, it seems plausible to me that the constitutional amendment the created what is now Article VIII § 11(a) was written to include allowance for it to fund, "safety," with the intention of allowing for highway patrol functions to be funded from motor vehicle revenues, in keeping with their past association with the Highway Department.
A more than half-century old precedent of actual practice seems to lend credence as a matter of reality to my reading. Even if I'm wrong, all that means some combination of that the PSP must reduce their activities, other functions of the government must be reduced or new revenues my be raised elsewhere, which might in fact end up just being equivalent to increasing Motor License Fund Revenue sources to compensate for the transfer to the State Police, because no matter what governments pretend, money is still fungible.
ImperialIIClass t1_jd9imbr wrote
> Seems few citizens of the commonwealth find this troubling.
Aren't gas prices, and our ridiculously high gas tax, one of the most common things PA citizens bitch about?