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pojmalkavian t1_itfkbs6 wrote

What are your thoughts on Valar doing jack shit throughout the book?

How about Feanor, do you feel he did little wrong or nothing wrong?

Was Fingolfin challenging Morgoth to a fight the most badass moment in the book?

Is Turin the most important character in the book?

Are you going to skip "of Beleriand and its kingdoms" on subsequent reads?

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Tenorius OP t1_itfqzn5 wrote

The Valar have a communication problem... if they just talked with people, half of the problems would not happen.

Feanor is an absolut prick and i thank him for it. When he appears the book becomes interesting.

To me the guy in the space ship killing the biggest dragon is the most badass. Fingolfin is a close runner up.

Turin was one of my favorites stories in the book.

Yes i will hahaha.

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Qlabalex t1_itgc04o wrote

There is a separate book that is a novelization of turins story called "Children of Hurin" that is an excellent more in depth telling of his story. I read that before reading the silmarillion and it made it so much more enjoyable having been introduced to characters and locations in an actual story. There are also novels for Beren and Luthian as well as The Fall of Gondolin. I believe Christopher tolkien put them together only a few years ago before he died

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swarmofseals t1_itgjnoi wrote

I haven't gotten to Beren and Luthien yet but The Fall of Gondolin is fantastic. It's not just the story, but several versions of the story (some incomplete) written at different times with notes and comparisons by Christopher Tolkien. It's both a great story (or at least a shell of one) and a really interesting window into Tolkien's process. It's also a bit depressing in that it's clear that there was amazing work in there -- it seems like he could have developed many of the stories in The Silmarillion into legitimate novels or novellas in their own right -- but lost heart in doing so because he despaired of them ever getting published. From The Fall of Gondolin it seems like even LotR was in doubt for a time because it was too close to the story of The Silmarillion rather than The Hobbit, which is what the publishers wanted.

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Steved_hams t1_ithdn8j wrote

Beren and Luthien was my favorite part of the Silmarillion! Is the separate book a retelling in more depth?

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Qlabalex t1_ithe82f wrote

I believe it's more in depth, it may be like the other comment described the fall of gondolin book where it has multiple drafts and notes from Chris tolkien on his father's work

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Qlabalex t1_iti2eyp wrote

This comment got me to finally take my copy of Beren and Luthian off the shelf. The first 40 pages is all preface from Christopher and some necessary background detail on morgoth and elves of the first age. The remaining 200 pages seem to be the most complete form of beren and luthian possible made by stringing together excerpts of his father's writings that mention them into a complete narrative. many of the chapters seem to have a paragraph or two, usually at the beginning and end, with commentary from Christopher on why he chose to use that excerpt or where it came from. So not exactly a seemless novel but if you liked the story there is certainly more of it and some insights into tolkiens writing. Also the copy I have from a 3 books set called the great tales of middle earth has some pretty great illustrations as well

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Steved_hams t1_iu2allp wrote

Cool! Definitely gonna have to seek out that series. Thanks

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huscarl86 t1_itfuc6j wrote

When you consider the Valar are to some extent avatars of elemental forces, them sitting on their arses while Morgoth runs amok makes a bit more sense. Because each and every time they intervene to help Elves and Men it results in catastrophic destruction to the very fabric of the world.

Even in the War of Wrath, where the bulk of the fighting appears to have been done by the Maiar (lesser angelic beings) and the Elves of Valinor rather than the Valar themselves, the collatoral damage required to bring down Morgoth is still enough to sink an entire continent.

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Allarius1 t1_itgpp3h wrote

I thought that had more to do with that fact that Morgoth “wove” himself into the fabric of arda. So it would be impossible to defeat him without causing irreparable damage.

Kind of like the old gods from WoW.

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OnePostDude t1_itkjj9t wrote

this is correct as Sauron is also woven into middleearth but only in limited account

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pojmalkavian t1_itfv1vo wrote

The collateral damage is required if the most evil of evil that ever evil-ed is to be defeated.

They sat on their asses while Morgoth enslaved, killed and destroyed men, elves and the same Middle-Earth that the supposed guardians of Eru's creations were to protect. Eventually, they do have to intervene to bring him down, so why not do it eariler to prevent destruction and lost lives up to that point?

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pelicanontheroof t1_itr242u wrote

The Valar aren't perfect either, and can make mistakes. Also remember, in the beginning, Melkor was stronger than all other Valar combined. The Valar did intervene swiftly after discovering the Elves when they invited them to Aman to protect them from Melkor. While that may seem an obvious thing to do, in the long term it might not actually have been the best idea. The first mistake might have been creating Aman at all, and living apart from Middle Earth. The second mistake might have been inviting the Elves to leave Middle Earth and come live with them there. It is implied that, counterintuitive as it might seem, in the long term it might have been better for the Elves to have stayed in Middle Earth. Maybe that might have prevented the corruption of men (humans) in the first place, among other things.

I keep saying "might," because it's impossible to know for sure. The string of causation is impossibly vast and complex. The point is that even something which seems obviously the right thing to do might not actually be.

But really your question can basically be boiled down to, "Why does evil and suffering exist at all?"

If God/Eru Ilúvatar is so all-good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, why create a being like Melkor in the first place? Why even permit the existence of anything that has the potential to go wrong?

That's just a mystery. Nobody, not even the Valar, knows that. There is only the assurance that no matter how terrible and hopeless things may seem, there is no evil or suffering for which there won't ultimately be justice, because everything has its source in Eru:

"Thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

Also when Feanor rebels against the Valar and rejects their summons:

"When the messengers declared to Manwë the answers of Fëanor to his heralds, Manwë wept and bowed his head. But at that last word of Fëanor: that at the least the Noldor should do deeds to live in song for ever, he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.'

But Mandos said: ‘And yet remain evil. To me shall Fëanor come soon.’"

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Thargelion t1_itfo9cu wrote

Fëanor did absolutely nothing wrong. The Kinslaying at Alqualondë never happened, and even if it did, the Teleri deserved it.

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pojmalkavian t1_itfovoc wrote

Those assholes absolutely deserved it. Just give him the fucking boats, he is only chasing after the most evil being in the world while the literal gods of the world are twiddling their thumbs and doing nothing.

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NirnaethArnoediad t1_iti3mdl wrote

Haha, I actually quite enjoy "Of Beleriand and it's Realms" nowadays.

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pojmalkavian t1_iti71a3 wrote

Hey, you are a better person than me. I find it physically exhausting to read, a geography textbook crossed with dictionaries because the good professor wanted to indulge in his language fetishism and decided to name every toponym in the book in multiple languages.

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