guesswhochickenpoo t1_j65mlkm wrote on January 27, 2023 at 9:48 PM

Reply to comment by disco_g in These are not the same by disco_g

I think part of it is that people assume there are some variables that can skew the results (like volume being unmatched, it being hard to A/B test without cognitive bias, etc) and that at the end of the days it's anecdotal. I'm not saying there isn't a difference or that you're experiencing placebo but, for me personally anyway, it's much more logical and reliable to take this with a grain of salt and rely on objective measurements in a controlled environment instead. Ideally we'd be able to see a measurable difference in frequency response on a professional measurement rig with as many variables removed as possible. I've yet to see that, but maybe I'm just not aware of that being done.

disco_g OP t1_j65ovxb wrote on January 27, 2023 at 10:03 PM

Yeah that's all fine (and standard) but what I'm saying is the difference is enough that it is clearly noticeable, so not in the zone of audiophile wishful thinking. Again I only bought this because the Apple dongle clearly sounded worse than my desktop setup (MOTU ULmk5 into SSL SiX).

Also there's a lot more to audio than frequency response and THD, such as frequency dependent distortion and ringing after transients. I'm sure if I measured just the FR of both these devices they'll be +/- 1dB 20-20.

dimesian t1_j6613jx wrote on January 27, 2023 at 11:26 PM

I have several portable DAC/amps and dongles they each sound different. I don't doubt that some people don't discern a difference but that may be because they are unable to, not because there isn't one. I suspect that some of the differences won't be reflected in frequency response but they may be measurable in some other way. I get why some people rely on measurements but, those can also serve as a form of placebo, if it measures well by a certain standard they feel confident about buying it. I wouldn't recommend someone choose their first DAC/amp based on how people describe a particular device's sound though.

entivoo t1_j67msor wrote on January 28, 2023 at 8:11 AM

Agreed, I also think that there are things that we've yet to measure and prove scientifically regarding how music sounds on different gears. Frequency response are one of those that we could already measure and have a standard measurement for but that doesn't mean that it is the only aspect that determines how music sounds on different gears.

We could only be scratching the surface on how to measure sound that is coming out from the audio gears that we use nowadays, but some people are just so certain that the frequency response graph is the only measurement that matters to determine how something sound.

I honestly think that is quite narrow minded of them.

Before gravity was researched and measured by Newton scientifically, does it mean gravity doesn't exist?

I hope in the future there will be someone dedicated enough to research this subject and discover what has yet to be measured now with the current knowledge we have.

blargh4 t1_j67vpbk wrote on January 28, 2023 at 10:18 AM

People have been researching the audibility of various distortions of audio signals since at least the 50s, we have a pretty dang good idea of what is audible and what is not when measured in controlled conditions in terms of absolute volume, harmonic distortion, intermodulation, phase shift, crosstalk, etc. But most importantly, we know beyond reasonable doubt that human senses are very sensitive to bias, and the humble $9 Apple dongle is unlikely to fare well in a sighted a/b test.

KruelKris t1_j68c4ek wrote on January 28, 2023 at 1:38 PM

I have been astonished before at how clear and easily identified differences disappear once volume matched and blind tested.

Rogue-Architect t1_j66562t wrote on January 27, 2023 at 11:55 PM

My question would be, are the measurement devices we currently use able to properly display those differences? Mind you, these are the same smoothed FR graphs that don’t show (or we can’t interpret) slam, detail retrieval, sound stage, etc. from. to be clear, I am not even saying there is a difference, but I am saying that it wouldn’t be inconceivable that the change is more fine grained than our current graphs are able to show. They are clearly limited in this regard. My advice is and always will be listen for yourself and do you best to do the cleanest a/b comparison you can. That way, even if it is placebo, who cares because it is better for your experience.