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disco_g OP t1_j65dz6v wrote

Reply to comment by NagoTheBeast in These are not the same by disco_g

Hmm I hadn't considered that this might be contentious. The difference in sound, while not huge, is IMO enough to be well out of the "subjective" category. Is it going to be worth $100+ to everybody? No, but to me it's a significant upgrade.

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guesswhochickenpoo t1_j65mlkm wrote

I think part of it is that people assume there are some variables that can skew the results (like volume being unmatched, it being hard to A/B test without cognitive bias, etc) and that at the end of the days it's anecdotal. I'm not saying there isn't a difference or that you're experiencing placebo but, for me personally anyway, it's much more logical and reliable to take this with a grain of salt and rely on objective measurements in a controlled environment instead. Ideally we'd be able to see a measurable difference in frequency response on a professional measurement rig with as many variables removed as possible. I've yet to see that, but maybe I'm just not aware of that being done.

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disco_g OP t1_j65ovxb wrote

Yeah that's all fine (and standard) but what I'm saying is the difference is enough that it is clearly noticeable, so not in the zone of audiophile wishful thinking. Again I only bought this because the Apple dongle clearly sounded worse than my desktop setup (MOTU ULmk5 into SSL SiX).

Also there's a lot more to audio than frequency response and THD, such as frequency dependent distortion and ringing after transients. I'm sure if I measured just the FR of both these devices they'll be +/- 1dB 20-20.

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dimesian t1_j6613jx wrote

I have several portable DAC/amps and dongles they each sound different. I don't doubt that some people don't discern a difference but that may be because they are unable to, not because there isn't one. I suspect that some of the differences won't be reflected in frequency response but they may be measurable in some other way. I get why some people rely on measurements but, those can also serve as a form of placebo, if it measures well by a certain standard they feel confident about buying it. I wouldn't recommend someone choose their first DAC/amp based on how people describe a particular device's sound though.

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entivoo t1_j67msor wrote

Agreed, I also think that there are things that we've yet to measure and prove scientifically regarding how music sounds on different gears. Frequency response are one of those that we could already measure and have a standard measurement for but that doesn't mean that it is the only aspect that determines how music sounds on different gears.

We could only be scratching the surface on how to measure sound that is coming out from the audio gears that we use nowadays, but some people are just so certain that the frequency response graph is the only measurement that matters to determine how something sound.

I honestly think that is quite narrow minded of them.

Before gravity was researched and measured by Newton scientifically, does it mean gravity doesn't exist?

I hope in the future there will be someone dedicated enough to research this subject and discover what has yet to be measured now with the current knowledge we have.

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blargh4 t1_j67vpbk wrote

People have been researching the audibility of various distortions of audio signals since at least the 50s, we have a pretty dang good idea of what is audible and what is not when measured in controlled conditions in terms of absolute volume, harmonic distortion, intermodulation, phase shift, crosstalk, etc. But most importantly, we know beyond reasonable doubt that human senses are very sensitive to bias, and the humble $9 Apple dongle is unlikely to fare well in a sighted a/b test.

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KruelKris t1_j68c4ek wrote

I have been astonished before at how clear and easily identified differences disappear once volume matched and blind tested.

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Rogue-Architect t1_j66562t wrote

My question would be, are the measurement devices we currently use able to properly display those differences? Mind you, these are the same smoothed FR graphs that don’t show (or we can’t interpret) slam, detail retrieval, sound stage, etc. from. to be clear, I am not even saying there is a difference, but I am saying that it wouldn’t be inconceivable that the change is more fine grained than our current graphs are able to show. They are clearly limited in this regard. My advice is and always will be listen for yourself and do you best to do the cleanest a/b comparison you can. That way, even if it is placebo, who cares because it is better for your experience.

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Clickbaitllama t1_j6658a6 wrote

No diffrence of sound can bring anything out of the “subjective” category. Enjoyment doesn’t have any objectivity.

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disco_g OP t1_j666fk0 wrote

To be clear, I meant that the two devices sound objectively different from each other. Which one is preferred is naturally subjective.

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Summer__1999 t1_j679j5d wrote

How are you able to claim that they're objectively different? Listening by ears? It's is not an objective way to do that because your ears (brain) is easily influenced by many factors.

That said, if you enjoy it, that's what matters the most. Even if it's just placebo, if money can buy happiness, I see it as an absolute win.

But , until you can come up with some convincing and reproducible way of proving one is indeed better than the other, please just enjoy it. Don't come claiming that how something is much better than the others just "by your ears", because these "info" might be misleading to people and probably lead to disappointment and money down the drain.

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disco_g OP t1_j67a0yw wrote

So are your fucking eyeballs, yet you can tell the difference between red and orange. Done with you dunces.

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lackofself2000 t1_j67aqk9 wrote

The difference between colors of light is the length of the wave of Electromagnetic radiation hitting your eye. Something that can be quite literally measured.

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Summer__1999 t1_j67aa0t wrote

Same with your eyes, ever heard of optical illusion?

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disco_g OP t1_j67ahp6 wrote

You way off track. I'm sorry but people can actually hear objective differences in sound. We can be tricked, but more often we are right. Especially those of us who are trained to critically listen to sound, which as a recordist, I am.

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Summer__1999 t1_j67ar3n wrote

I'm not saying that there is absolutely no difference, I can't say for sure. I'm saying that your "trust me bro" approach isn't convincing enough to claim that as "objective", because that's not what "objective" means

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disco_g OP t1_j67azdi wrote

Please do not trust me bro. I should not have trusted the people who said the Apple dongle was the last word in headphone amp fidelity, and you should not trust me.

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Summer__1999 t1_j67cvwk wrote

I (clearly?) am not trusting you, but others, especially newcomers, might, because of how you pass off your "info" as facts.

Also, just because you're xxx professional of some sort, does not make your ears the "objective" tool. Please don't think that you're that much superior than us just because you work with audio.

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disco_g OP t1_j67d3rh wrote

Lol ya got nothing. You are effectively arguing that the Apple dongle is the last word in headphone amp fidelity, and that people can’t hear differences in sound. Look at you.

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Summer__1999 t1_j67ewp0 wrote

>You are effectively arguing that the Apple dongle is the last word in headphone amp fidelity

Uhm no? Have you not read what I typed?

>I'm not saying that there is absolutely
no difference, I can't say for sure. I'm saying that your "trust me
bro" approach isn't convincing enough to claim that as "objective",
because that's what "objective" means

Anyways, what I'm saying is, you claimed that there's objective differences, but you only listened through you own ears, and you didn't describe how different they are apart from some vague terms like "more detail and clarity" in ONE comment. Also, in the other comment you made, you said that "Every single aspect of how an audio device sounds can be measured", well, instead of throwing around buzzwords and arguing your ass off with random internet strangers like me, how about you provide said measurements and how those measurements corresponds to your experience? Educate us.

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