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NarutoUzuchiha t1_jdvoisn wrote

How was a descendant of King's younger sons treated?

For example ; 'Capet' had a cadet house of 'de Dreux' which descended from fifth son of Louis VI of France. They were made counts but were they treated as normal counts? or was there something like royal counts?
Similarly, how were bastard descendants of kings treated if compared to legitimate younger son's descendants.

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en43rs t1_jdvvggb wrote

From the 16th century onward, in France they had a specific status. The younger son (or daughter) of a king would be a "Son/Daughter of France", their child would be a "Grandson/daughter of France" and their descendant "Prince/Princess of the Blood". (note this only applies to legitimate descendants). This meant that they were indeed treated as superior to other nobles. They were considered "Pairs de France" (Peers of France) a specific status which meant they had the highest status in court after the direct royal family.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_jdyofuj wrote

Thank You and is prince of blood similar to prince du sang that the above answer mentioned?

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en43rs t1_jdytclu wrote

Exact same thing, I just translated it into English.

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jezreelite t1_jdwxh95 wrote

During the times of the Direct Capetians, the official status of younger Capetian sons was no more exalted than whatever title they were granted. This includes such men as Robert of Burgundy, Hugues of Vermandois, Robert of Dreux, Pierre of Courtenay, Robert of Artois, Alphonse of Poitiers, Charles of Anjou (ancestor of the Capetian House of Anjou), Robert of Clermont (ancestor of the Bourbons), Charles of Valois, and Louis of Évreux. In practice, however, being the sons and brothers of kings gave them unofficial levels of clout and often greater wealth than non-royal counts. Charles of Anjou and Charles of Valois, for example, were able to muster the resources try to claim foreign crowns, though only the former succeeded. Charles of Anjou's descendants, who became kings of Naples and Hungary, enjoyed generally close ties with their French cousins: Charles of Valois married his double second cousin, Marguerite of Naples, Countess of Anjou; Louis X's second wife was Clementia of Hungary; and Louis I of Anjou was designated as heir by Jeanne I of Naples, which subsequent Valois, including Louis II of Anjou, Rene of Anjou, Charles VIII of France, and Louis XII of France, became obsessed with making good on.

However, again, this wasn't officially granted precedence. This is best illustrated when Isabelle of France supposedly protested her son, Edward, giving homage to her cousin, Philippe VI of France, because Edward was the son of a king while Philippe was only the son of a count — nevermind that the count had been her own paternal uncle, Charles of Valois.

The accession of the Valois kings, of which the aforementioned Philippe VI was the first, saw the creation of the title prince du sang, though agnatic descendants they wouldn't been given official ranking over all other members of the peerage until 1576.

How the other cadet branches other than Capetian House of Anjou fared differed: the Vermandois went extinct within three generations and the Courtenays' fortunes were ruined by their adventures in Byzantium, after which half of the family that went east took up residence at the court of Charles of Anjou and married into his family and the few that stayed in France declined into genteel poverty and political irrelevance. In the 17th and 18th centuries, the Courtenays tried to claim the status of princes du sang, but without success. However, the Dreux and Bourbons did very well for themselves, all things considered: the last member of the House of Dreux was Anne of Bretagne, the twice queen of France, and the Bourbons eventually got to become kings of France and later, Spain and the Two Sicilies.

I'll do bastard sons in another comment.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_jdyo1y0 wrote

Thank You for your detailed answers. I would hope to learn about bastards as well soon.
Oh and as far as i can remember the Vermandois house began when prince of France married to the then Carolingian Countess of Vermandois which also resulted in end of the Karling line in 11th century.

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jezreelite t1_jdx3ad2 wrote

After the start of the High Middle Ages, bastard sons of kings held only as much status as their fathers' felt like granting them. Succession of bastard sons to royal and noble titles was far from uncommon in the early Middle Ages (see: William the Conqueror or Ramiro I of Aragon) but it declined rapidly after the mid-11th century, except in Wales and Scandinavia. A number of French and English medieval kings most often arranged for acknowledged bastard sons to marry heiresses or get high-ranking positions in the church.

Examples of the former are Robert of Gloucester, Philippe Hurepel of Boulogne, William Longespée of Salisbury, and Richard de Chilham and an example of the latter are Geoffrey, Archbishop of York. Some royal bastards, such as Philippe Hurepel; Joan, Lady of Wales; Marguerite de Belleville; and the Beauforts; were legitimated by the Pope, though often with the proviso that they were barred from royal succession.

Sometimes, bastard siblings and their legitimate siblings were close; for instance, the unfortunate legitimate sons of Louis I of Orléans seem to have adored their bastard half-brother, Jean de Dunois, who loved them in return and kept watch of the family possessions while his half-brothers were being held captive in England. On the other hand, relations between Geoffrey, Archbishop of York, and his legitimate half-brothers were sometimes tense, though that's not too surprising since relations between his four legitimate brothers put the fun in dysfunctional.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_jdyn5y9 wrote

Oh...thanks for this detailed answer.
by the way how were bastards treated in court as compared to their legitimate half brothers?

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en43rs t1_jdzu83u wrote

To add to this and go forward to Early Modern France, if the child was the son of a noblewoman they were usually treated well. Basically they were in a "in between" status: they had royal blood but absolutely no claim to the throne. So they were respected but always as high ranking nobles, not official member of the royal family.

The Duc d'Angoulême (bastard son of the French King Charles IX) was even more in a peculiar situation: his father was part of the Valois dynasty, but after 1589 (death of the last Valois king)... there were no longer any (legitimate) Valois. The crown went to their distant cousins the Bourbons (from which we get Henry IV, Louis XIV and so on). But he remained, like a remnant of that family. For example he was chosen as ambassador to the Holy Roman Empire in 1620, him being of the Valois blood made him suitable as a symbolic representative of the crown.

So yeah, legitimized bastard had a high status (none of this game of throne non sense)... but always on the side. A rank below the "proper" family.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_je0whd8 wrote

why couldn't Duc d'Angoulême gain supporters and usurp the throne from his Bourbon cousins?

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en43rs t1_je117he wrote

I could point to the fact that France was in a civil war and that he was very close to the future Henry IV who was a very powerful war leader, or the fact that he was 16 when his uncle died...

But there would still be a problem. That would be entertaining the idea that he could inherit the throne. Despite what is often said the Kings of France did not have unlimited power. There is a set of "fundamental laws" that even they had to respect. Those included the fact that only males could inherit and transfer right to the throne, that the king could not choose his successor (it was always his closest male relative, often his eldest child)... but also the fact that the King had to have a legitimate claim.

He is not a legitimate son (even if he is recognized and was given land) and so he cannot get the throne. Ever.

Despite what Game of Thrones and Hollywood may say (although the Last Duel shows this quite well) the Middle Ages/Modern Era was very legalist. Laws were essential. Charles d'Angoulême (later Duke of Angoulême) has no claim. He cannot be the King of France no more than he can be the Pope or the Emperor of China.

If we imagine an alternate universe were Angouleme was the most powerful and popular noble around (which... he was not), who somehow raised an army and took the throne.. he wouldn't be legitimate. He would have to act as a conqueror who took it by force and the whole of Europe would probably gang up on him to install whatever distant relative to the throne they had as a "legitimate" puppet king. Even William the Conqueror who took over England had to pretend that he had a claim (the previous king "apparently" promised it to him).

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Of course in real life if that had happened, he would have found a justification. But the truth is that as a bastard he was forever a B tier noble without a claim.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_je55p5g wrote

woah...that's news to me...
I thought a bastard could inherit if the king had no issues or siblings or close relatives (uncles, 1st/2nd cousins) but seems like they will be totally ignored in any case and a very distant relative would be preferred over them any day..
By the way, i have read somewhere that Henry VIII didn't have any legitimate son until...well...Edward VI popped out and before that he was planning to designate Henry FitzRoy (his bastard through Elizabeth Blount) as his heir.
Is this somewhat true?

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en43rs t1_je59yo0 wrote

>I thought a bastard could inherit if the king had no issues or siblings or close relatives (uncles, 1st/2nd cousins)

Not in France. Now, if they couldn't find any heir (which would be impossible by the late middle ages, everyone noble in Europe was related to everyone) mayyyybe but as I said when you get past the 11th century everyone is more or less related to everyone and can reliably prove it.

>i have read somewhere that Henry VIII didn't have any legitimate son until...well...Edward VI popped out and before that he was planning to designate Henry FitzRoy (his bastard through Elizabeth Blount) as his heir.

Is this somewhat true?

As my example may suggest I studied French history (specifically the 17th century), I know nothing about English royal history, sorry.

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NarutoUzuchiha t1_je8rpg0 wrote

it's fine sir...thanks a lot, i came to learn loads of new info thnx to u

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