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WhenceYeCame t1_j0g19qn wrote

Reply to comment by Hyphenated_Gorilla in Drought encouraged Attila's Huns to attack the Roman empire, tree rings suggest by ArtOak

Fall of civilizations podcast suggested the Bronze Age collapse was partially caused by simultaneous volcanic eruption and droughts displacing people and triggering mass warfare in the Mediterranean.

Black skies and failed crops? Time to raze our neighbor's cities out of desperation.

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Firstpoet t1_j0gfbdb wrote

Great series. Used for getting to sleep so I've never finished it.

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AgeOfHades t1_j0gqxmz wrote

the Rapunui did that for me ages ago, was a good listen

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[deleted] t1_j0gk9sj wrote

[removed]

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[deleted] t1_j0gmw7f wrote

[removed]

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wthulhu t1_j0k5lyi wrote

Here's to hoping there are always more episodes than we have time for listening

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tittysprinkles112 t1_j0jrkg6 wrote

You stopped sleeping?

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Firstpoet t1_j0khu1f wrote

Just drift away listening to the end of the Maya etc then next day realise I listened to 3/4 of the episode. There are many episodes too. Another podcast on the Byzantine Empire or the history of the Burgundian state, both over 100 episodes.

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GuglielmoTheWalrus t1_j0gx5oa wrote

History, anthropology and related fields should probably have some integration with biology. Many of its core concepts are applicable. Homeostasis is critical to most if not all living organisms. Maintain the biological status quo as much as you can, and whenever there's a shake-up, there's contingencies to address that. And sometimes there's positive feedback loops, where variable A precipitates variable B, and variable B precipitates variable A.

Same basic concepts show up so often in history. Climate change, in this case, forces extreme measures i.e. aggressive competition for resources, extreme measures cause more instability i.e. aggressive response from previous target(s) of aggression, which leads to yet more extreme measures. In this case, Huns go raiding to make ends meet. They get resources, but Romans and others contest their raids. Huns are now in hostile territory but have an abundance of resources and more experience in warfare. Climate conditions still stink, so returning to the steppe and herding livestock doesn't work. Yet more raids ensue; further into the enemy hinterland and toward major population centers as borderlands are despoiled. Yet more conflict occurs between battle-hardened Huns and their enemies.

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wildskipper t1_j0gxwdx wrote

Environmental history is a very well developed subfield of history. Environmental historians have fought for many years for the greater consideration of non-human factors in historical debate.

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GuglielmoTheWalrus t1_j0h31c7 wrote

I've been out of academia for a while, but my hope is that the focus going forward emphasizes human agency in addressing those non-human factors, and the factors presented by those factors. Particular problems encourage the development of particular solutions, but a specific solution isn't a foregone conclusion since there can be multiple viable options to pursue. In the situation of the Huns, what if the Goths who crossed the Danube in 376 had been adequately supported by Roman authorities, rather than provoked? Would cooperation between Romans and Goths avert an Adrianople and subsequent fallout? Would this significantly deflate the threat posed by the Huns in the first place? I don't mean to turn this into alternative history; instead, I use this to point out how there are so many variables with differing potential outcomes.

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Josquius t1_j0j00st wrote

Sure. But not many of those things were coin toss spur of the moment decisions. They came via a long chain of previous events that led people to act a certain way in particular situations.

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blarryg t1_j0hlfxu wrote

My hypothesis is what I call "the ISIS factor". Remember when Bush dismissed the Iraqi military to unemployment while they were being ethnically cleansed? The ex-military guys joined ISIS and suddenly ISIS was a fighting force that took the world's most powerful militaries months to put down.

Now, imagine the drought and disturbances prior to the end of the bronze age. Refugees started, but they were easily put down/enslaved/whatever until the military guys of crumbling nations became refugees themselves and said, "hell with begging, let's switch to taking". They became a desperate but well trained fighting force. As former empires crumbled (refugees disrupted the trade that brought copper and tin together -- the Bronze age very literally ended) there was no "best military" left to fight these now, now militarized roving groups.

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LargeMonty t1_j0ip2eo wrote

You're on the right path but ISIS was over a decade after that.

Related is when occupying Japan after WWII MacArthur was sure to integrate the former Imperial military and avoided that issue. Bush, as a student of history, should have known about that. Especially given his father's WWII experience.

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jam-and-marscapone t1_j0gecem wrote

Which episode?

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Givemeurhats t1_j0gff8q wrote

Episode 2: Bronze Age Collape - Mediterranean Apocalypse

Fall of Civ is an fantastic channel, Paul Cooper and his team do an amazing job. Every single one of their videos is worth a watch.

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zeolus123 t1_j0ggkqg wrote

The only problem I have is the same problem I have with Dan Carlin, it's takes quite a bit of time to produce a 2-6 hour episode, its like I'm the worst kind of dope fiend for these podcasts.

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Givemeurhats t1_j0ggt0n wrote

Me too, lol. The second a new one comes out I've watched it. So I've done quite a few re-watches, helps you retain the information anyways

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owoah323 t1_j0gt0ul wrote

Wait, is the fall of civilizations on YouTube or another channel to watch? I’ve only seen it as a podcast.

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Givemeurhats t1_j0gtdsf wrote

https://youtube.com/@FallofCivilizations

This is the link to their channel. A month or two after they do a podcast/release the audio on youtube, they make a video production of it. They're beautiful, too. Makes them worth a 2nd watch when the video comes out.

Click on the Fall of Civilizations playlist, those are all the videos. The chronological one is nice, they place the civilizations in chronological order

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Omateido t1_j0gza2y wrote

Oh man. I make myself wait, the videos are so much better.

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owoah323 t1_j0hrzb4 wrote

Makes sense why on one podcast the narrator was referring to “look at this artifact” and I was like… how am I supposed to see this?

I gotta watch these now

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Archmagnance1 t1_j0iur8a wrote

You would like Real Time History then. They do weekly releases of a big topic then do a mega edit at the end to make it one cohesive video.

This one on the franco-prussian war is my favorite and really highlights how technologically and tactically behind the US was in its Civil War that was starting around the same time. https://youtu.be/vWZz-lHCu-M

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BlueInMotion t1_j0m369k wrote

To be honest, Prussia had a couple of trials before the Franco Prussian War (against Denmark and Austria Hungary), while the U.S. didn't. So it's not a (big?) surprise, they were ready for the French.

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Archmagnance1 t1_j0m4wbm wrote

The US was about 20 years behind in technology not just tactics. They didn't have to fight another major power so they didn't have to have development programs like the europeans did. Single loading bolt action rifles with paper cartridges were around for military use in continental europe since the 1850s, well before the US Civil War. They were needle rifles, with the primer right behind the bullet instead of the black powder, but much more advanced and allowed for more individual flexibility than the muzzle loaders before them. The Mauser model 1871 then came out in europe and saw adoption in the new german empire with metallic cartridges.

The next thing to come out of the US for military adoption was a conversion system for their old muzzle loaders until around 1890 IIRC.

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BlueInMotion t1_j0m9xai wrote

Your right, on the technical level. Europe with its never ending wars (only be intermitted by short truces) was well ahead of the U.S. in that regard. But on the tactical level Prussia, until it started its war series, wasn't known for ability to put up a fight (Yes, Frederic the so called Great, but during the Napoleonic wars its performance was rather lackluster).

So the German High Command had its time to learn how to mobilize, equip, march, motivate, supply and prepare an army for battle. And they had an established High Command. And they had an established military culture. The U.S. didn't have a large scale war in its history until then and I don't count the Mexican - American war large scale war.

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4Wf2n5 t1_j0gh077 wrote

It really is incredible.

I thought they are from the BBC or something at first as the quality was so good.

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lo_fi_ho t1_j0i4fke wrote

And a sign of things to come when climate change devastates our climate.

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rocketeerH t1_j0jyrg5 wrote

Sure that wasn’t just The Fifth Season?

Crazy stuff, thanks for the recommendation

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