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SouthShoreSerenade t1_jacomy4 wrote

Reply to comment by homefone in A renewed push to legalize ‘medical aid in dying’ by d5dq

>Dying people may view themselves as a burden

I'm going to say something awful.

I've seen enough dying people in my life to know that they ARE a burden, almost universally, when that death is drawn out. A horrible burden, one that saps the strength, the will, the hope, and the light out of the people that care for them.

Any dying person that wishes to avoid being that terrible burden on the ones that they love have the God given right to make the choice not to be that burden, and government and a falsely polite society have no right interfering with that.

Dementia has struck every elderly blood related person on my dad's side of the family. Already I can see it coming for him. I know it will come for me too. I will not let my loved ones have to babysit me while I scream in fear, soil myself, and try to call police on the threatening "intruders" who have loved me their entire lives. It's not happening.

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socialist_frzn_milk t1_jae6cld wrote

This isn’t an awful sentiment, people with severe dementia and Alzheimers ARE a huge burden and the people in my family who have died of it would have been mortified to know the hardship it placed on their loved ones. Death with dignity is always preferable.

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homefone t1_jacqik8 wrote

>Any dying person that wishes to avoid being that terrible burden on the ones that they love have the God given right to make the choice not to be that burden, and government and a falsely polite society have no right interfering with that.

No. Feeling like a burden is not a justification for suicide. It's not normally, and that doesn't change at the end of life. And how will we be certain that every medically assisted suicide will be done to someone that can actually consent to it? Dying people are not known for their mental faculties.

>I've seen enough dying people in my life to know that they ARE a burden

And so, you'd prefer they feel pressured to kill themselves because of it?

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3720-To-One t1_jad0j9r wrote

You’re right.

Let’s force dying people to needlessly suffer, because letting them go out on their own terms it makes you uncomfortable.

I’m sure if you were the one slowly dying an agonizing death, you’d feel different.

If you don’t want a euthanasia, don’t get one.

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Miami_Vice-Grip t1_jad0q3v wrote

I don't really view any life generally as anything that special/beautiful. It seems like you are arguing for a position that doesn't hold water. Like, they are only killing themselves because they feel they are a burden? Well two things, they are literally already going to die anyway regardless of their feelings, and they literally are a burden on the others.

Normally the rationale behind not wanting suicides is that the people have more life to live or the issues they have are temporary. Neither of those apply here.

Like I get the instinct to be against it, but it's a unique situation compared to "traditional" suicide. It's also not like anyone is forcing people to die.

If the worry is that others with power of attorney would like, trick people into signing up for MAID or something, that's a whole other issue.

All of this unless I'm not understanding what you're saying correctly

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homefone t1_jadb6kt wrote

The rationale against prohibiting suicide is that human life is the most valuable thing in the world. That's why offenses which violate human life are the most heinous crimes one can commit.

Suicide is not pain mitigation. It's forcefully snuffing out someone's life, and it can't be undone. The fact that we're discussing this as just another medical treatment and not a nuclear option is exactly what concerns me here.

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socialist_frzn_milk t1_jae6k5i wrote

“Forcefully snuffing out someone’s life” who often cannot remember their own name, or the names and faces of the people they love, or even remember to go to the bathroom on their own.

This is a life worth living to you?

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homefone t1_jaeemc0 wrote

>“Forcefully snuffing out someone’s life” who often cannot remember their own name

This is borderline eugenics. There are a lot of groups of people who can't remember their own name, and therefore, can't consent to be euthanized.

Whether that's a life worth living to me or anybody else is irrelevant, what matters is if euthanasia for the dying is worth the ethical rabbit holes it creates, and I don't think it is.

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socialist_frzn_milk t1_jaef276 wrote

So…you just selectively edited my post and either didn’t read or didn’t bother to address the rest of it. Good work. Just like every anti-choice activist on Earth. Sentimentalizing human life and pretending that medical freedom doesn’t matter if it makes YOU personally uncomfortable.

Also, I’d love to know how allowing terminally ill patients to choose their time and manner of death is some sort of “rabbit hole”.

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homefone t1_jaegtyx wrote

>Sentimentalizing human life

...That's supposed to be bad?

>So…you just selectively edited my post and either didn’t read or didn’t bother to address the rest of it

I did address it. What you wrote seems to imply that people who can't remember their own names etc. have lives not worth living. In that case, yeah, I do find it prudent to point out the fairly obvious eugenic implications of that argument. And, whether you think someone in that condition has the faculty to consent to be euthanized.

>Just like every anti-choice activist on Earth.

I'm still waiting on how this is connected to abortion?

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socialist_frzn_milk t1_jaeikg1 wrote

Sentimentalizing human life is connected to being anti-choice and if you can’t see how, you’re absolutely anti-choice.

And the fact that you think that there would be no psych eval or screening process in place boggles my mind. What, did you think doctors would just blow terminally ill patients’ heads off with shotguns if they decided to die with dignity?

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Miami_Vice-Grip t1_jaewqlk wrote

shrug I feel like it's not that big a deal. Killing people who don't want to die is basically one of the worst things you can do to someone, but EoL situations get trickier. All humans are going to die eventually. Like I think you and I are imagining very different scenarios here. The people that MAID would apply to aren't people who have a full rich life that "could have been" if they didn't get the treatment.

Like, we put our pets to sleep if they are suffering and there's no hope left, yet we force ourselves to live through that same pain until the end. You say it's not for pain mitigation, but if someone's remaining "life" is just bedridden pain, how exactly is it cruel to allow them the choice of ending it?

But again, as long as we can all just agree that NO ONE IS FORCED TO USE THIS OPTION, similar to abortions, if it's not for you, then just don't do it. You can get upset about it, but ultimately, there's nothing after life aside from decomposition. The people who die don't give any shits anymore, and so if it's gonna happen anyway, might as well have some vestige of control.

Are there potentially people who would/could bully their family member into agreeing to be euthanized? I mean, I guess so? We already allow other people to decide to pull the plug on life support (I know it's different), we also allow family members to coach people into/through medical procedures just in general.

Worrying that someone who is actually qualified for MAID will decide to end themselves solely because of "pressure" from caregivers seems like such a specific stretch that should not block the whole idea from happening.

Implement MAID, and then see if anyone is abusing it. I mean, you also have the doctors, they aren't stupid, they are used to dealing with people who are seeking specific procedures while under duress/fear/pressure, and this would be no different.

Also, MAID is already a thing in many places around the world, so whatever worries you have about it, just like, Google if they actually happen or not. Clearly in these places where it's legal for years haven't had any complaints grievous enough to shut the whole thing down.

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