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Horknut1 t1_ixibmt9 wrote

Reply to comment by itallendsintears in Here’s Gov. Baker’s plan for dealing with the influx of migrants to Mass. by bostondotcom

These are all people. We can work on more than one problem at a time.

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[deleted] t1_ixijaad wrote

Right--no need to view the world in such a zero sum "I win-you lose" kind of way. We can care about both issues/groups of people at the same time.

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pillbinge t1_ixjig10 wrote

Where's that getting us?

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[deleted] t1_ixjiu62 wrote

I don’t really know what answer you’re looking for. But it honestly is just the right thing to do—doesn’t have to “get us somewhere.” I know there’s a place for zero sum thinking, but I think we should try to make it the exception rather than the rule.

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pillbinge t1_ixjm7eh wrote

The right thing, in these cases, is either subjective, or it's the answer to a question framed in a way to get a specific answer. For the basic type of person who thinks efficiency is a humanist value, but hasn't looked at the world around them, I can understand that.

But the main answer is that it isn't getting us anywhere. We can talk about having some sort of system that helps anyone who needs help, if they show up from another country, but rightly so, that system should benefit people already in the area. That's what was said, with the urge that we do this so that people on somewhere like Mass and Cass get help. The problem is that we'll always end up inducing demand or extending this fight.

This isn't zero-sum thinking. It's the fact that when it comes to dividing things, you could always not divide things. Whether or not there's a hypothetical or theoretical sum at the end doesn't matter.

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[deleted] t1_ixjmyzn wrote

I hear your point. I think we fundamentally disagree on the idea that someone “in the area” should get preference over someone who isn’t or who just arrived. I tend to think of all humanity as equally worthy of aid/help/compassion. That may be a lofty way to look at it, but I’d like to think at least starting from that outlook is important as we get into the nitty gritty of what needs to happen.

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pillbinge t1_ixjoe6d wrote

We do fundamentally disagree, respectfully, but I'm very invested in this as of the past few or so years, when I put the views you have to the test. Views I had as a college student and a little after.

It's what I refer to as numbing, and it doesn't answer any real questions. Like you said, it's lofty, but that's antithetical to the nitty gritty. It's why I think of a book about how politics don't really affect local areas, because local areas have to deal with real, material issues. Republicans and Democrats might disagree on how to handle some things, but they have to keep the trash trucks moving. They have to keep the water flowing.

The idea that we're all equally worthy of aid and help is separate from compassion, which is immaterial, and autonomy, which is another topic. The insinuation that these people need something other than aid or help was never there. I never implied we shouldn't have compassion. I have tons of it. I'm insulted by the insinuation that I'm suggesting something else. Of course I treat people I physically meet respectfully.

I just no longer recognize this bland, post-WW2, grand view that doesn't work. It didn't work then, it doesn't work now. It's a continuation of imperialism since you rarely see the West or developed nations changing. It's always "the other". It just sounds a lot nicer now that it's been workshopped and forced to work - especially when our country started selling off its industry and labor. That's why pro-labor people eventually get met with claims of xenophobia.

In this case, why shouldn't our borders matter? They keep us in just as much as they keep others out, and we would be able to help in the abstract more if we had a functioning society. We'd help more people if we helped them where they were. We help fewer people by being lazy and waiting till they get here, telling them good job, and convincing ourselves we did something.

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[deleted] t1_ixjq8lt wrote

There’s a lot to unpack here (for eg the reason asylum seekers have to come here is partially bc of US foreign policy decisions in the past leading to unstable societies in a lot of places).

But I’m going to respectfully decline to further engage bc it’s thanksgiving eve and I don’t think either of us is going to be convinced via Reddit comments. :) We can agree to disagree on a lot of the beliefs, assumptions, and values we hold. Have a safe and happy holiday!

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