Submitted by Movie_Advance_101 t3_10pdj2d in movies
Movie_Advance_101 OP t1_j6juqyo wrote
Reply to comment by CrackPlug80 in Avatar: The Way of Water was boring by Movie_Advance_101
I gotta stop you right there. Many superhero movies, especially sequels, put emphasis on action set pieces and cramming in as many characters as possible. MCU films manage to do both of these things, but they don’t use CGI blockbuster directors like Michael Bay or Zack Snyder.
They choose smart directors/writers who focus on character and plot, and support them with a CGI crash-course to teach them what they don’t know. It pays off, resulting in a much more sustainable and marketable product with higher average quality than the superhero genre.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6jvrgd wrote
Dude give me a break, MCU movies are essentially just cheap trash when it comes to characters and plot. They all follow the same general plot formula, and the characters are mostly just the same unfunny quip machines. The movies don't have any thematic depth to them, they are corny, and overall designed to appeal to kids and teenagers. Don't pretend that these movies are something they are not. They are silly movies about Superheroes fighting bad guys. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're into, but don't pretend it's high quality cinema.
magus-21 t1_j6jx4ok wrote
Watching the MCU is more like watching a big budget TV show than a typical movie franchise. If you don't pay attention to the continuity, you won't get anything out of it but the explosions and lasers (which is perfectly fine).
They aren't dense films by any means (a single Oscarbait dramatic film will accomplish more character development and thematic layering than half a dozen MCU sequels), but taken altogether they are far from shallow or meaningless.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6k031u wrote
I'm sorry but yes they absolutely are shallow and meaningless. They are assembly line produced movies meant for kids and teenagers. If you like them that's cool, but don't pretend they are something they aren't.
Also you act like there's some grand narrative to the whole thing, when in reality it's just like 30 repetitive movies that are essentially the same thing as the last one. Good super hero vs big bad super villain. CGI battle. That's about the extent of it. Once you've seen one of them, you've seen them all
magus-21 t1_j6k3jkw wrote
>If you like them that's cool, but don't pretend they are something they aren't.
I'm not. You're pretending that they aren't something that they are.
>Also you act like there's some grand narrative to the whole thing
They have as much of a "grand narrative" as any ongoing, open-ended TV series. Which is to say, they may not have a fixed "grand narrative," but they do pay attention to continuity, and the characters and storylines develop within that continuity. Which is why if you don't pay attention to continuity, you won't get anything out of it, and you clearly don't.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6k9e0a wrote
Ok then what is the grand narrative of the MCU?
njdevils901 t1_j6k9uy6 wrote
Making money
magus-21 t1_j6kb0cw wrote
Good lord, you can't even read past one sentence. No wonder you can't follow the continuity.
Here it is again: "Which is to say, they may not have a fixed 'grand narrative,' but they do pay attention to continuity, and the characters and storylines develop within that continuity."
CrackPlug80 t1_j6kbl78 wrote
There is no real continuity, all it is is retelling the same basic story over and over again in every movie. You don't have to follow all the MCU movies to be able to watch any one of them. You can watch them out of order. They are designed this way
magus-21 t1_j6kcd0i wrote
>There is no real continuity, all it is is retelling the same basic story over and over again in every movie
Thank you for proving that you can't follow the continuity.
I already knew you couldn't, but you just confirmed it.
>You don't have to follow all the MCU movies to be able to watch any one of them. You can watch them out of order. They are designed this way
Wrong. They are designed so that they are enjoyable if you watch them individually. But if you watch them sequentially, in the order they came out, and you remember what happened before, then you will be rewarded with developing character arcs, relationships, worldbuilding, etc.
The fact that you don't know this (and won't even consider it) tells me you never even gave it a chance, you never will give it a chance, and you're upset that so many people enjoy something that you, for some reason, can't.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6kd2js wrote
Not sure why you are being so defensive of this children's movie franchise
I'm sorry but you're just incorrect, the MCU is nothing more than a repetitive cash cow where they crank out the same basic movie over and over again. There is no overall story to it or any larger purpose other than to make money and sell merchandise, hence there is no real continuity.
magus-21 t1_j6keav2 wrote
>Not sure why you are being so defensive of this children's movie franchise
I respond poorly to snobbery, especially when it's unjustified.
The real question is, why are YOU so insistent on saying it's dogshit when you clearly don't even watch it?
>I'm sorry but you're just incorrect
I'm sorry but I'm not. Yes, it's a cash cow, and yes, it's meant to print money and sell merchandise, but the reason it does so with such success is because everything you said about it is wrong.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6ken5s wrote
I never said you shouldn't enjoy the superhero movies if that's your thing, just don't pretend they are something they are not.
There is zero value to watching all the MCU movies as if they are a tv show, because there is no overall story or purpose to them.
magus-21 t1_j6kf3k0 wrote
>I never said you shouldn't enjoy the superhero movies if that's your thing,
No, you just called it dogshit and brought it up as such in a thread that had nothing to do with it, solely because you peeked at the OP's posting history and got triggered that he was an MCU fan.
That's TOTALLY not snobbery. No sirree.
>just don't pretend they are something they are not.
I'm not. You are, and for what reason? None, except that for some reason you can't follow a few "simple" movies.
>There is zero value to watching all the MCU movies as if they are a tv show, because there is no overall story or purpose to them.
Oh, of course there is, because people do. Just because you for some reason can't follow it past a single episode doesn't mean other people can't, either. In fact, the value in treating it as a series is pretty evident in its success.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6kflvs wrote
Ok so what is the overall story of the MCU? What is the overall purpose?
magus-21 t1_j6khse9 wrote
That is like asking, "What is the overall story of Star Trek?"
The answer is the same: it's an ongoing series that follows the adventures of a cast of characters that evolve and change over time.
Hence what I said before: "Which is to say, they may not have a fixed 'grand narrative,' but they do pay attention to continuity, and the characters and storylines develop within that continuity."
You are acting as if the only stories worth telling are the ones that need to revolve around a central plot, as if it's the plot that matters and not the characters that drive it.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6kiue1 wrote
It's just the same "adventure" in every single movie. Introduce new generic big bad guy, heroes get into cgi fight with big bad guy, heroes win, rinse and repeat. There is zero reason to follow these movies in order.
Meanwhile 90% of the characters are just the same generic quip machine, there is not a single interesting character in the MCU
magus-21 t1_j6klqk5 wrote
>It's just the same "adventure" in every single movie. Introduce new generic big bad guy, heroes get into cgi fight with big bad guy, heroes win, rinse and repeat. There is zero reason to follow these movies in order
This sounds more like you making an excuse for your inability to follow anything past a single movie. Sorry, that's your own fault, not anyone else's, especially not the MCU's.
Each movie might use the same three-act formula, but the characters change, and when characters change, the story changes. Which is again why I compare it to a TV series like Star Trek.
>Meanwhile 90% of the characters are just the same generic quip machine, there is not a single interesting character in the MCU
Every character looks one dimensional if you don't have the attention span to connect even just two movies together compared to when you do.
EDIT:
Literally your whole posting history (at least recently) is just you shitting on other people for the movies they like, and not just the MCU. I hope that you one day learn to enjoy a movie without putting others down.
CrackPlug80 t1_j6kqxuc wrote
>This sounds more like you making an excuse for your inability to follow anything past a single movie
Ok then explain what I'm missing? What is the overarching story of the MCU ?
magus-21 t1_j6ktpmx wrote
Already did. And like I said, in case you missed my edit:
Literally your whole posting history (at least recently) is just you shitting on other people for the movies they like, and not just the MCU. I hope that you one day learn to enjoy a movie without putting others down.
And that's the last response you'll get from me on this thread.
stunkdunkly t1_j6k8rfj wrote
Complicated plotting doesn’t preclude something from being shallow.
magus-21 t1_j6kb59a wrote
Good thing the MCU doesn't have complicated plotting. They just follow their own continuity and develop the characters from what came before.
Weird how you don't seem to understand the difference.
stunkdunkly t1_j6kf3v3 wrote
No need to be defensive. To say that a person needs to be paying special attention to the continuity of this very long series of movies or they “won’t get anything out of them” is to say that there is something complicated about the way they tell their stories. It also isn’t an argument against the notion that they’re shallow.
magus-21 t1_j6kg6aw wrote
>To say that a person needs to be paying special attention to the continuity of this very long series of movies or they “won’t get anything out of them” is to say that there is something complicated about the way they tell their stories.
First of all, that is not the same as "complicated plotting."
Second, no I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you can derive enjoyment in different ways. You CAN enjoy them just as simple action movies, or you can enjoy the interconnectedness of the whole series in addition to their appeal as action movies. Hence why I compared it to a TV show rather than a bunch of movies.
stunkdunkly t1_j6kgs9z wrote
Can you give me an example of the sort of thing I’m missing out on if I saw Eternals but didn’t see Black Widow?
magus-21 t1_j6kka5u wrote
Pick a character, and follow how they change through the movies and TV shows.
The most obvious one is Iron Man, since he was the de facto protagonist of the MCU until Endgame. His PTSD from Avengers causes him to create Ultron in Avengers 2. His guilt over creating Ultron compelled him to sign the Sokovia Accords and cause the disbanding of the Avengers, which leaves Earth vulnerable to Thanos. His compulsion to treat consequences as problems to be solved with engineering results in ever greater consequences, until he comes up on one problem whose only solution is self-sacrifice, which calls back to and resolves the arc that started with Captain America's original evaluation of his character in Avengers: "You're not the type to make the sacrifice play."
It remains to be seen whether there will be similar driving forces for the post-Endgame MCU. I'm withholding my judgment on that. But acting as if there aren't any recurring themes or character beats in the MCU is stupid, because it is literally what keeps people coming back to it.
stunkdunkly t1_j6knzfd wrote
Where did I imply that there aren’t recurring themes or character beats? And what have they been doing for the last 4 years if “similar driving forces” haven’t materialized in any meaningful way yet?
magus-21 t1_j6kq62o wrote
>Where did I imply that there aren’t recurring themes or character beats?
I didn't say you implied that. You asked for "an example of the sort of thing I’m missing out on if I saw Eternals but didn't see Black Widow," and I answered with an example of a thing that you would need to follow through multiple movies.
>And what have they been doing for the last 4 years if “similar driving forces” haven’t materialized in any meaningful way yet?
Iron Man came out in 2008. Avengers came out in 2012. "Four years" is not a long time in the context of the MCU.
stunkdunkly t1_j6krgmw wrote
I just asked what they’d been doing. What value do they have before they’re built off of years later? You say they aren’t shallow or meaningless but it sounds like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
magus-21 t1_j6kt6gu wrote
>What value do they have before they’re built off of years later? You say they aren’t shallow or meaningless but it sounds like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
Honestly, I share the same concern. They're obviously setting the stage for some kind of multiversal/cosmic conflict, but the multiverse is just a setting, not a story hook, and "setting the stage" means your play hasn't even started yet.
The problem is that the current MCU doesn't have a story hook that teases something revolutionary (like what "the Avengers Initiative" from Iron Man did) or a main villain like Thanos to threaten the newly established status quo. So yeah, it does feel like a holding pattern. But that's also why I said I'm withholding my judgment until they start showing their cards.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kysbc wrote
> like they’re in a holding pattern, maybe indefinitely.
Holding pattern seems like the wrong term, more of an establishing peroid. Like they did pre first Avengers. They are setting up the pieces to fight the next big baddie.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kwc9a wrote
> compelled him to sign the Sokovia Accords and cause the disbanding of the Avengers
Are you putting that on Tony and not Cap?
Tony was taking responsibility for his past mistakes and following the law. As well as throughout the film trying to compromise with Cap to keep the team together. Cap is the one who choose to break the Accords ultimately breaking up the Avengers. Cap made up his mind on what the right thing to do was(a decision that was wrong-Zemo was never going to unleash more Winter Soldiers).
magus-21 t1_j6kxp5i wrote
>Are you putting that on Tony and not Cap?
No statements of fault, just cause and effect. The signing of the Sokovia Accords led to the disbanding of the Avengers, and Tony's decision to sign them was driven by his guilt over creating Ultron. And Tony's decision to create Ultron was driven by his PTSD over the Battle of New York.
I'm just illustrating the kind of character continuity that some commenters here (specifically CrackPlug80) seem to be unable to see.
Bomber131313 t1_j6kziqd wrote
> just cause and effect.
I'm just saying it wasn't his 'cause', that domino was pushed over by Cap.
>The signing of the Sokovia Accords led to the disbanding of the Avengers,
I would say more Cap not signing did that.
>I'm just illustrating the kind of character continuity that some commenters here (specifically CrackPlug80) seem to be unable to see.
Oh, I know and agree with you.
I just don't think you can put the breaking up of the team on Tony.
ashinaclan123 t1_j6jwg7x wrote
Here is the disconnect, MCU movies have shitty stories and characters lol. I can agree that avatar was bland, what I can’t understand is how someone thinks avatar is bland but the mcu isn’t. The mcu is even worse when it comes to that stuff.
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