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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfb3si wrote

Reply to comment by ProlapsedMasshole in In testimony and rally, crowds oppose Republican-backed bills targeting LGBTQ youth by kitchinsink

maybe it has something to do with this-

NH Constitution, Bill of Rights, [Art.] 6. [Morality and Piety.] As morality and piety, rightly grounded on high principles, will give the best and greatest security to government, and will lay, in the hearts of men, the strongest obligations to due subjection; and as the knowledge of these is most likely to be propagated through a society, therefore, the several parishes, bodies, corporate, or religious societies shall at all times have the right of electing their own teachers, and of contracting with them for their support or maintenance, or both. But no person shall ever be compelled to pay towards the support of the schools of any sect or denomination. And every person, denomination or sect shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any one sect, denomination or persuasion to another shall ever be established.

June 2, 1784

Amended 1968 to remove obsolete sectarian references.

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livefreethendie t1_jbfdhwe wrote

So no one should be forced to pay for a religious school got it but what's that got to do with anything here?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbff40l wrote

pronouns (mentioned in comment above) etc is part of a religion. Not everyone wants to take part in your rituals.

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ProlapsedMasshole t1_jbfhlrc wrote

Ah, yes the "society" religion.

This is a dumb take.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfi8ua wrote

ah yes dumb (in your estimation) is protected by the NH Const

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ProlapsedMasshole t1_jbfisz1 wrote

It's not because pronouns are not a religious ritual. That's the dumb take.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfjk4g wrote

It is. But even if you take that stance, it's contrary to the belief and practice of established religions well represented in the state.

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b1ack1323 t1_jbgxlqs wrote

Separation of church and state supersedes whatever stupid shit you are trying to push.

Also, Atheism is protected under established religions.

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PM_Georgia_Okeefe t1_jbfv6kl wrote

Where in the fuck do you get that pronouns are part of a religion?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg2uhr wrote

This thread, for example, is dripping with religious zeal

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PM_Georgia_Okeefe t1_jbg669y wrote

You're an odd duck

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgkf1y wrote

I'm mainstream in real life NH. If you think I'm odd then maybe you should get off reddit, leave the house, and talk to someone.

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BatmansShame t1_jbgzi5v wrote

I talk to lots of people, just not religious fruitcakes like you (who are VERY much in the minority in secular New Hampshire)

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbh9q0n wrote

So you keep insisting. It's not true.

But you can keep saying it on Reddit if it makes you feel better.

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[deleted] t1_jbfhfjg wrote

[deleted]

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfill7 wrote

I understand the use of pronouns over the last 5000 years and how it relates to belief and practice of represented religious groups

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[deleted] t1_jbfiwh9 wrote

[deleted]

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TheodoeBhabrot t1_jbfsduz wrote

It means they just hit their meth pipe before coming on Reddit today

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfyr5u wrote

yes because ad hominem rules all

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BatmansShame t1_jbgboks wrote

I mean, maybe if you made a good point or a solid argument, people would focus on those. But when you make a really dumb point, it’s way more fun to dismiss it and make fun of you

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgk8dc wrote

I did make a good argument. In comparison itsdumbitsdumbitsdumb seems weak.

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BatmansShame t1_jbgza5y wrote

Your argument is that pronouns are religious in nature. This is a dumb argument, and that’s why people are making fun of you.

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averageduder t1_jbh2oxe wrote

Profoundly dumb

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbh90yt wrote

yeah profound is the worst kind of ad hominem.

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averageduder t1_jbhj866 wrote

> pronouns (mentioned in comment above) etc is part of a religion

you know the rhetorical arguments only really work when you're staying above the fray.

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livefreethendie t1_jbh7fb8 wrote

What religion is that?

Even if that is the case then why make a law saying they have to tell the student's parents?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbh8xze wrote

child's parents might belong to a different religion and want to know

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livefreethendie t1_jbhgj5y wrote

Different from what? Which religion has the pronouns?

Informing the parent doesn't take any religion out of the school or release anyone from being forced to pay for that public school so what does that citation have to do with this new proposal?

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triestdain t1_jbn5jjm wrote

Wow. The smarts on you. So there are laws in place to force the schools to tell parents if a child identifies as a certain religion in schools?

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Consus t1_jbfejfd wrote

What does that have to do with telling parents if their kids use different pronouns at school?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbffm6v wrote

the pronoun thing is the ritual of a religion. Not everyone belongs to that religion or chooses to participate. Other natural rights come into play as well. Freedom of speech, thought, religion.

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Consus t1_jbfhnsl wrote

Lmao thinking religion owns fucking pronouns. Do the banks own adverbs?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfi4fz wrote

that's called a straw man.

This new use of existing pronouns as well as the invention of new pronouns is religious. Also note that it is contrary to the belief and practice of represented religions with 1000s of years of history (of those particular behaviors and beliefs).

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Paper_Disastrous t1_jbfmdue wrote

What is religion?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfyxsp wrote

Judaism, Christianity, Islam, for example

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Paper_Disastrous t1_jbfzmeg wrote

Not examples, I mean, what do you think religion is? Define it.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg14cz wrote

"religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence. It is also commonly regarded as consisting of the way people deal with ultimate concerns about their lives and their fate after death. In many traditions, this relation and these concerns are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitude toward gods or spirits; in more humanistic or naturalistic forms of religion, they are expressed in terms of one’s relationship with or attitudes toward the broader human community or the natural world. In many religions, texts are deemed to have scriptural status, and people are esteemed to be invested with spiritual or moral authority. Believers and worshippers participate in and are often enjoined to perform devotional or contemplative practices such as prayer, meditation, or particular rituals. Worship, moral conduct, right belief, and participation in religious institutions are among the constituent elements of the religious life." https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion

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Paper_Disastrous t1_jbg47bm wrote

Thanks......So what the fuck does that have to do with pronouns? No one worships pronouns. Of all the priests and pastors getting arrested for child molestation on a daily fucking basis, not a single one has been the head of a pronoun church. There's nothing holy or sacred about a pronoun. So gtfo with this stupid bullshit argument, you wet fart.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg7dgn wrote

Pronouns are for them a ritual. It's related to right belief, moral conduct, and community participation. The associated belief system checks all the boxes for Britannica's definition of a religion. -particularly a humanistic religion.

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Paper_Disastrous t1_jbgks7w wrote

By your very loose understanding of the definition, and reality, anything could be a religion.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgldvl wrote

Brittanica's is a very mainstream definition. Words have meaning. If it checks all the boxes then it can be properly called a religion.

No. Everything could not be called a religion.

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Consus t1_jbfuf63 wrote

Language is dynamic and is always changing. None of the pronouns you use today were around when the Bible was written.

Also please explain how religion gets to have ownership of language

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfyd7k wrote

religion gets ownership of they way they choose to use their own language. It can be part of ritual, and they don't have to participate in your religion.

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TheodoeBhabrot t1_jbfsmol wrote

So which is it, can’t use pronouns because can’t be forced to adhere to religion or can’t use pronouns because people should be forced to adhere to religions?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfyj62 wrote

I suspect a false dilemma so you would have to show a case in real life

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TheodoeBhabrot t1_jbfyniz wrote

This isn’t a false dilemma these are both things you’ve said that contradict each other

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg2mr0 wrote

well then you would have to explain what you think contradicts each other

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TheodoeBhabrot t1_jbg2wwf wrote

You can’t both being against religion being forced on people and be for forcing region on people

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg7tui wrote

I'm not for forcing religion on people.

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TheodoeBhabrot t1_jbgcl00 wrote

Then why bring up that it goes against “1000 year old religions”? Since by your own admission that shouldn’t be a factorn

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgk1as wrote

It's relevant because parents may want to know if their child is taking part in the rituals of a different religion.

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livefreethendie t1_jbhwvrv wrote

But that is not allowed to be the school's responsibility because the school -as a government entity paid for by tax payer dollars- strictly has to not be religious in any way. That includes 1000 year old religions just as much as whatever you think these parents are concerned about.

If the parents just want to know what's going on in their childrens lives it is their responsibility to develop that relationship and just ask the kids themselves.

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barnabasthedog t1_jbfy6wq wrote

Please explain to us how the new use existing pronouns is religious .

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg0ggs wrote

Simply put - In my view the pronoun thing is part of a religious world view that is quite new, and adherents of classical religions tend to disagree. I mean to say it doesn't even fit into their world view.

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exhaustedretailwench t1_jbfoim5 wrote

pronouns are just a particle of speech to substitute for a noun, noun-phrase, or proper-noun.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbfzclw wrote

if that were true then there would never be offense, outrage, cancellation, legal action, criminal charges etc for the claimed wrong usage.

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1carus_x t1_jbg54tc wrote

Have you never heard of harassment or hate speech?

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CheliceraeJones t1_jbg3ax1 wrote

Come on guys, stop bullying u/RedLeafRoy. She's upset and we should respect her opinion on pronouns.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbg3ijl wrote

I'm not upset. Some of it is an interesting exchange.

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CheliceraeJones t1_jbg5630 wrote

I'm sorry, that was terribly chauvinistic of me to swoop in like a white knight to defend m'lady's honor. You're a grown woman and you can defend yourself. Also happy Women's Day!

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1carus_x t1_jbg4nri wrote

Everyone has pronouns they came free w your xbox

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shortieXV t1_jbgib90 wrote

This is the worst take I've seen in a long time. It seems your position is that "pronouns are religion". I would encourage you to examine why you frame things this way because from my point of view it means you only see the world as "my religion is default and everything else is some other religion" which makes you sound delusional.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgjpxw wrote

You claim it's the worst take, but your analysis is really shallow. It's 2 straw men.

Another person asked my definition of religion. I provided one, and then demonstrated how this belief system checks all the boxes. I don't want to continually have the same conversation here, so please read that if it interests you.

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shortieXV t1_jbgkjo5 wrote

It doesn't interest me because it's a psychotic take and this isn't a straw man because it's an observation not an argument. You stated it's a religion which is clearly false by all common definitions so using your niche bias definition to play semantic dodgeball sounds awful to me. No thanks.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgl4sr wrote

It's psychotic now? LOL

the pronoun thing is a ritual. The related belief system checks all the boxes of a humanistic religion.

My argument isn't semantics. Words have meanings. If people here say itsnotitsnotitsnot then I get to demonstrate how it fits the definition.

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Consus t1_jbgp01d wrote

Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Pronouns are not a religious ritual. They are words we use in place of someone's name.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgqd1r wrote

pronouns can be used as a religious ritual and this case is. I've spoken with a lot of NH clergy who agree

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Consus t1_jbgs7u4 wrote

Oh well if you and the clergy agree it must be true.

Please explain how pronouns are a ritual. Rituals are ceremonies or rites. How can a word be a ceremony or rite? Be specific. Site examples of pronouns being used as a ritual, since you apparently know the last 5000 years of religious history.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgthii wrote

words are used in ritual every day. Literally. No exaggeration. -from the liturgy in houses of worship to the every day life of faith. Do you have little or no exposure to religion? Have you heard someone say amen? Peace be with you? And also with you? No?

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Consus t1_jbgv8zz wrote

Yes I was raised in a very religious household.

Just because words are used in rituals does not make them rituals or somehow owned by religion. Candles, flowers, clothing, furniture, food. All these things are used in rituals. Does that make them inherently religious? Do Christians own wine because it's used in church every week?

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbgx1is wrote

> How can a word be a ceremony or rite?

Since you asked that, I believed you didn't know how a word could be a ceremony or a rite. If you were raised in a very religious household you should know this.

"Just because words are used in rituals does not make them rituals or somehow owned by religion."

That was not your question. So that was not what I was answering. You asked how a word could be a ritual at all.

"Candles, flowers, clothing, furniture, food. All these things are used in rituals. Does that make them inherently religious?"

No, and that was never my argument. My argument for hours now has always been the same- The new way that pronouns are used is part of a belief system and religion.

If you use flowers in a religious way, it's religious. If you use food in a ritual, it's a ritual.

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Consus t1_jbgzszv wrote

If that's what you have been trying to say, you've done a terrible job of explaining it.

I'll make it easy for you though, it's not a religion. No one worships trans people or pronouns. Yes beliefs have changed but you're not protected from hearing other people's beliefs.

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RedLeafRoy t1_jbh9c3i wrote

parents are allowed to know what beliefs are being taught to their children. And, as I demonstrated, teaching beliefs in public schools is illegal.

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triestdain t1_jbn6f9a wrote

Teaching and promoting a singular belief is 'illegal'. Teaching about beliefs in general is absolutely legal my friend. World Mythology and World Religions are a common class in highschool. For decades.

There are no current laws that force schools to tell a parent if thier child is claiming to be part of a certain religion.

If your claim is true. A law for that and not specifically about pronouns should be pass. Correct?

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shortieXV t1_jbgxhvu wrote

If your clergy agree with this it suggests they are using rhetoric as a tool to isolate you and make you dependent on them for community by "othering" differing view points. I recommend getting out while you can before you find yourself entirely dependent on the clergy for any thoughts or community you have.

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rudyattitudedee t1_jbhgf6e wrote

I think morality and piety have to do with wearing pants to school not trying to give handies in the bathroom but ok.

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