So, what they are saying is, we don't really want Ukraine to win... EU in tow with the US incapable of a défense policy of their own. What is the point of this shit show?

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Sounds like a good deal to me. Send the tanks and force the damn issue.

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Only if Germany matches the US commitment 1:1

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Well Germany could at least do SOMETHING!

Germany is becoming pain in the arse to the level same or greater than Turkey.

sending abrams, leopards and challengers all seems like a waste of shipping space and money considering the different logistic requirements of these systems

So…. Germany won’t let the owners of equipment they sold send it, but they want the US to directly send it…

Way to go Berlin. It’s spinelessness like that which will preserve democracy and the rule of law.

Haven’t they seen all the other equipment the US has provided? Many many times what Germany has done. Fuck that noise.

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You give too much credit to the German government who have shut down nuclear plants only to destroy a village that sits on lignite which is the dirtiest form of coal.

Yeah intelligence is the alien to the German government.

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The Abrams is in a class by itself as a main battle tank.

The M1 MBT is very thirsty — requiring considerable fuel and logistics that the US pocketbook can afford, but not likely a cost-effective tool for Ukraine.

The Abrams also requires much more mechanical and electronic technology repair training and support than any other tank produced today.

So maybe I am missing something but why is Germany demanding a match. Germany has supplied barely a fraction of military aid compared to the US. Really seems like Germany needs to step it up a bit on the support...Or am I just naive?

No you're right, but don't worry, some Germans will be by to tell you why you're wrong and they're secretly doing more than everyone else put together

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Seems pretty clear some "old guard" in the government are compromised by Russia

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Because they have not been stockpiling tanks or weapons in general, because that's usually what happens when you are not constantly invading some middle eastern country for the past 20 years

Also they probably just really don't want to for whatever reason, they will rather put some additional conditions to drag their feet instead just refusing

...and Germany was all like, "No, you first," and the US was like, "Make me."

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They have. They've been doing a lot.

The US doesn't allow most up-to-date weapons systems they control to be sold or sent to others without permission either. It's standard.

Germany is it will approve the transfer of Leopards if the US transfers some of its tanks as well.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong but yelling at Germany to do something about those Russians has had mixed results historically

you're being a bit naive because the entire world has only sent a fraction of what the US has sent

> but why is Germany demanding a match.

It's cowardice, they're deathly afraid of doing anything without overwhelming political cover. It's much more comfortable to hide behind the skirt of mommy US.

between the leopard, abrams, and challenger 2 you have 3 different engines, one of which is a gas turbine, 2 different types of guns with different ammunition, and all weighing more than anything ukraine has in inventory, which means they will need all new recovery systems as well, not to mention the whole new training of crew and maintenance people. This whole thing with tanks between the UK, Germany and the US seems like a weird pissing match and I really don't understand it. It would probably be cheaper to spool up a factory to produce modernized T-72s than it would be to introduce three new tanks and logistics systems to a country during wartime.

Germany is looking for an excuse to not send anything, or political cover to send it, so this doesn't matter. The US sending a single symbolic Abrams would still force Germany to deliver on their (implied) promise.

True, but that absolutely shouldn’t be the case. Germany has much more to fear from Russian expansionism in Europe.

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Agreed. Also, this is a drone war. As soon as a high priority tank is painted, it’s toast.

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Nah you're correct. Its just germans being germans

Holding their dick in their hands while bowing down to Quatar doesn't really count my dude

You guessed incorrectly.

The US has 3.5k M1's in long term storage.

Germany can barely keep its own military funded and running and says it won't be able to meet NATO GDP requirements set in 2014 until 2031.

They're bitches who expect everyone else to pony up but won't do it themselves.

Edit: 2006, not 2014.

Even in GDP terms, they're far outclassed by Poland and the UK, it's just embarassingly shitty how little France, and especially Germany, have given, compared to their economic ability.

The Germans were effectively neutered in '45. Partially by being occupied by the Soviets and the Western Allies, but mostly by having a lot of young men lying dead between Berlin and Moscow.

Modern Germany couldn't lead a Girl Scout Troop across a playground. They're a has-been power like Spain and the Netherlands, whose primary national defense is the United States. What Germany says carries the weight of a pillow.

Look at it in terms of GDP. France and Germany are sending embarassingly little compared to places like the UK, Canada, Poland, the former Soviet Baltic states (Estonia gave a whopping 1.1% of their GDP and Latvia 0.93%) a whopping 1.1% of their GDP), or Norway.

For a country that suffered under Russian occupation, they aren't giving like the rest, that's for sure.

The US gave 0.23% of its GDP, comparable to Canada.

the US spends 3x more on defense than the entire EU combined, they aren't ever gonna be able to match us.

This isn't about stockpiles or military readiness, it's about political will. Germany is merely being asked to approve Leopard export from allied nations as well as supply a symbolic number of them. In practical terms this is extremely easy to make happen, the only barrier to doing so is cowardice and indecision from German policy makers.

Yeah. Trumpists (cough cough) were right about one thing: the US needs to stop being the security guard for Europe on US taxpayers’ dime. It’s been 78 years since the end of WWII, and it’s time for Germany (in particular) to stop free-riding on the US security umbrella.

People keep posting the same garbage, just wait until tomorrow, Jesus Christ.

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>Combining financial assistance, humanitarian aid, and weapon deliveries put together, the German government has sent €5.45 billion directly to Ukraine this year. It’s also channeled a further €7.15 billion to help fund EU initiatives for Ukraine, making for a combined total of €12.6 billion in German support.

Germany overall has sent ~0.3% of its GDP.

That decision would only make the US weak. The US is strong because it intervenes basically everything everywhere and takes the position of the "leader of the free world". If they stop doing that, it would slowly result in the US becoming more insignificant.

Or at the least if they could stop crapping on us it'd be nice.

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Our german government is in a horrible state right now, tons of unqualified people on positions that require qualified people in these times. But the issue with the shutdown of the nuclear plants wasn't the german government to be fair. It was a very clear order of the citizens after tons and tons of protests. Well... people are stupid I guess

I wasn’t suggesting that the US withdraw from the world stage.

The US is strong because it’s a vast country comprised of 330 million people spread out over 50 states, a district, and territories, with tremendous natural and human resources. Having Germany pull its weight after outsourcing most of its defense for nearly 8 decades won’t cause the US to crumble.

Thank you context wizard.

Yeah didn’t I read that the military kept asking for no more new tanks, that the military wanted to shift that money into purchasing different systems but that Congress kept mandating the production of new tanks to keep the jobs flowing in their districts. I thought we were swimming in unwanted excess tanks.

Germany had 4,500 tanks in 1990, with heavy tanks about 2,000. Today there are 220 heavy tanks, half of them defunct. What do you suggest?

You are too emotional her, I guess. Couch potato in war topics?

Sending heavy tanks means building up a huge supply and maintenance structure in Ukraine. Even in Germany many of the Leopards are not working for maintenance reasons.

Simple solutions are not always solutions.

So, that DOES count?

United front

With Russia

This article is actually pretty poorly written. It only concerns German stock. Other nations are welcome to send their tanks, but none have applied for an export permit, see comments from Habeck.

Basically every country besides the UK but including the US hs the same position where they are welcoming other nations to send their own tanks.

Dont we give them money for defense? Pretty sure we already paid for those tanks.

curious…. how many patriot missile batteries did germany send vs how many the us sent?

either help, or don’t. just don’t make ‘tit for tat’ excuses for not helping.

Invest in defense.

The best time to build a modern army was 20 years ago, the second best time is today.

100 billion Euros are there now, in addition to the 50 billion per year for defense. US companies are jus to raising their export prices.

Ordered Chinooks: 3 billion Dollars, suddenly now 6 billion. How come? 😉

Ah, of course it's the US' fault!

Not fault. US companies are as greedy as always. That is their business model.

And Americans are very touchy to critics. 😉

Not as touchy as Germans being asked to meet their NATO spending requirements 😉

A shame they can only throw money, and not actual military aid, then.

No. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about was the point.

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Last time german armor made it to eastern Europe it was a whole thing.

After all the US has done in the past, I don't think Ukraine is where we should draw the line. The one time we're actually defending democracy instead of installing fascist regimes.

I thought we mostly weren't providing M1's due to fairly extreme fuel usage and maintenance requirements?

It is a myth. There are no „requirements“, Mr. Trumper.

Do not try to begin a competition to create good and bad NATO members.

They could have given nothing, right? And still be a western country. Germany has to spend another 200 billion this year to compensate for energy prices.

They do. You just do not care.

Bash. You read right wing news and build up an enemy. Pathetic.

Germany could not send special ammunition to Ukraine as Switzerland did not permit it.

Every arms producer has these contracts.

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You are clearly uncomfortable with your own life. Do not make that a „German“ thing.

There were no requirements. That is an old Trump fake.

I fully, 100% agree. Now is not the time. Also, we’d be fools from a cost-benefit standpoint.

eta: Nonetheless, Germany needs to step up.

Why not think about it? Should some country deliver Leopards, who will have to supply parts, maintenance? KMW, Rheinmetall - so that would force the German government to accept that.

Baah. Should Leopards be delivered, next step will be fighter jets, war ships, … And the complete supply and maintenance line is supposed to be thrown in for free, too.

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Nope.

The M1 has high fuel requirements, but someone in this thread already already pointed out that there is Soviet era equipment on the field on both sides with comparable requirements.

And the M1 has fairly low maintenance needs, and is extremely field repairable. IIRC, you can swap turrets and engine packages in the field fairly quickly.

Egypt and Saudi Arabia have fielded them for a while now, and Poland has had their training unit running for a bit, and nobody has come up with any maintenance stoppages that require US support to overcome that I've heard of.

False.

Trump merely pointed out that the majority NATO was failing to meet them. At the time, only 5 did: the US, UK, Greece, Estonia, and Poland.

As of 2022, 9 of the 30 do. France and Germany, notably, don't as of the beginning of the year.

And sending multiple types of tanks instead of just one as Scholz proposes will be sure to simplify maintenance and supply lines right?

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What leader of Europe? EU is not an authoritarian state like Russia or USA. Just an economic zone of different countries.

USA has 800 billion military budget, Germany has 50 billion. You want armaments race again?

Who tf says “baah” are you a sheep

Everyone in Germany says that. Better than the US „fuck“ …

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USA is keeping military posts all over the world in its own interests. Bit like the British 150 years ago. Not for „defending freedom and democracy“.

Some compare relatively to GDP, some to population: as always, puck what serves your point of view. That is for what these numbers are made.

Mr. Scholz did not propose that. His opinion is to send no heavy tanks at all.

That fact redounds to Germany’s benefit, as well as to the rest of the west.

It’s not at all like the British because the US doesn’t have colonies. The British were engaging in mercantilism; the US isn’t.

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There is no race, the US is superior by far in military, we all know that. My concern is more towards the attitude of Germany rather than comparing defense budgets. Realistically yes the US is able to send more aid, no one in here is failing to acknowledge that. But Germany can still send those tanks without the US sending more aid, that is imo a bit scummy.

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EU countries are giving substantial financial, civilian and arms support already.

After tanks are delivered, the next debate will be: fighter jets, Long range artillery, war ships. That already started in Divos, too.

Let us be earnest: The only ones who can fulfill these needs are USA and China.

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Germany would rather strip mine coal as the US goes greener, and get one upped by the US in military support as per usual. They won’t be able to afford replacements, unlike the US that spends more on its military a year than Germany makes in its GDP.

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Still: There was was no requirement to spend these 2% of GDP, just a perspective. Trump and others made a „contract to pay 2% to the USA“ of that.

Of course. Only in USA these supports are breaking news at least three times before they come.

They only said that because the love the psedo-christian-facist state that is Russia. If Ukraine had been attacked by people of a darker completion our fascist party would have given them fucking air craft carrier groups.

Hmmm... It's not like free security?

Its like USA's business model. Somewhat similar to the colony era.

I am not economy or military expert, but I do know there ar benefits from all that military expansion, directly and both indirectly.

Im not saying whether this "business" model is efficient or not, (it is getting slightly less effective currently as I see it) but it is not "wasting tax payers money"

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What a bunch of panzeies

No the fuck it isn't.

This is misleading. Scholz talked about only sending tanks from Germany if the US would also send tanks.

But the German government has signaled that they would allow export of leos from Poland etc. but that they havent recieved any offical request yet

Yes there is a requirement. All NATO countries agreed in 2006 to the 2% of GDP target.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/02/16/military-spending-by-nato-members

https://www.baks.bund.de/de/node/2036

It was not a pledge, but a vague declaration of intent. Read the following article.

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To prevent dictators getting ahold of nuclear weapons. You want more north koreas? Just letting dictators run loose is how you get more koreas and russias and middle easts. If the US was like the British empire, it’d own all of Europe hand in hand with the Soviet Union AND Britain. Now once again, the US has to step in and play god because germany AND France AND the rest of the EU is repeating itself and letting the rest of the world down by not confronting dictators.

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Least patriotic German. Dude’s everywhere on this post; the insecurity is leaking out.

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Ad hominem. MAGA style. Blocked

All you do is try to defend Germany doing nothing 🙄

Ok, still doesn’t change the fact that Germans shouldn’t be blocking those tanks.

Yeah, they are closer to the threat than the US. I would say it's more of a fear thing. I mean, the only things standing between Germany and Russia geographicly is Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus. Plus, add that history that Russia has made it to Berlin before and I can understand some hesitation.

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/krieg-in-der-ukraine/lieferungen-ukraine-2054514

Plus several billion in funds, 750,000 Ukrainians fled to Germany, are housed, schooled and funded.

Btw: The population of Germany grew from 82 million to 84.5 million in two years, in spie of declining birth rates.

100 billion Euros extra fund for Bundeswehr, 200 billion for energy prices, after 100 billion for Corona in the last two years.

Federal budget in Germany is half of US military budget. Consider that.

I stop discussing here. USA political opinion - as much as I loved it when living there - is a Calcutta Black Hole since 2016 for me. No way for real arguments any more. Pity.

So we could say that Germany is somewhat trying to appease Putin? Sounds familiar….

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In my completely non expert experience it doesn't seem like they are trying to appease him. The US is ok with throwing war machines at them because to the US, this is a giant dick showing contest to Russia. Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.

Uh, oh. Trouble in NATO paradise?

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We're sending a bunch of Bradley's over. Does that now count even though they aren't MBTs.

>Well... people are stupid I guess

People fear nuclear power because of a small number of worst cases.

The freak occurrences at Windscale, Chernobyl, Three-Mile Island, and Fukushima occurred over a 60-year span, but are held up as representative of nuclear power.

But no one looks at the lasting damage coal mining has done over the years. The towns where children constantly inhale fly ash, or end up buried under a landslide of coal refuse. Where the mining debris seeps into the water table. Where the miners develop chronic lung diseases.

It was stupid and short-sighted to shut down the nuclear power plants.

The US has been propping up the Ukrainian military in foreign aid since before Russia invaded this time. Russia has been involved in a series of pushes and the US was selling older military tech that outstripped Ukrainian resources at a loss prior to this most recent invasion.

The whole Hunter Biden/ impeachment thing? That was over the US aid package to Ukraine. It was 250M in funding for equipment and training. We'd been sending Javelin launchers since before the war started.

We've sent billions in advanced weaponry and medical aid and it has predated the latest Russian invasion. Yes, it takes time to send weaponry over but we've been training Ukrainian forces since before the war started which is one of many reasons they were able to outlast the first two weeks and allow additional aid to arrive. Zelenskyy didn't run and the military held Kyiv. Part of that was they already had a limited number of Javelin launchers and other weaponry to stop armored advances. The stockpile has exploded in the last year, sure.

The US backing of Ukraine isn't new. There's absolutely standing to say we've done quite a bit without actually having soldiers directly engaged.

In Germanys defense they’re a lot closer to Russia than the U.S. if I was them I’d want to be as far down on Putins shit list as possible

Do we still have any old M60’s kickin around?

This has nothing to do with Ukraine, or energy prices. You aren't the only ones experiencing winter.

This is a treaty you've been in since post WWII. You agreed to the terms in 2006.

Stop whining "we're spent out". Germany is the richest economy in the EU. If Greece and Estonia can do it, if the UK can do it, you can fucking do it, you sad sacks.

Your government let your military go to shit in favor of cowering under the US's shield, and now your coziness with Russia is coming out.

You have no excuses for this. It's not a new requirement, it's not an emergency requirement, you've literally been a deadbeat debtor on this for decades.

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For what? Germany to come up with another excuse? If they weren't shamed into helping they'd still have only sent those 5000 helmets which was going to be their entire military aid package in the beginning.

I guess all the billions the US has already sent doesn't count?

That's what they get for putting all their eggs in Putin's basket.

Germany is well protected by NATO. If Russia is having this much trouble with Ukraine NATO would bend them over at will. As for your other point that Ukraine is one of the barriers between Germany and Russia it makes no sense for Germany to let Ukraine fall and bring the Russian threat closer.

> Germany doesn't want to wave its wurst unless they know they will have someone backing them.

You mean like NATO(which includes America and it's war machine) and the entire European Union? Your point makes no sense at all.

right? I'm sick of this whole supporting European wars thing while Europeans sit there and complain about the US. Fund this shit by yourselves already.

what is your solution?

If Germany wasn't part of NATO, then I could definitely see your point. I suspect that this is more political, and perhaps they want something from the US. At this point I think we are all just speculating. It is making Germany look bad nonetheless.

Except that Germany has the power and protection of NATO. I don't think Germany is worried too much about Russia, but who k ows what rolls around in their heads. You could be right lol

Oh agreed. As I said, in my completely non expert opinion this is all speculation.

People like you are so fucking ignorant. How do you think the whole world would look like right now if the US had the military budget of an average European country? Hint: you wouldn't like it very much.

Buy somewhere else.