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[deleted] t1_j6lanji wrote

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234

gangmasterfader t1_j6lc861 wrote

What the US has been sending so far is pretty much limited in range, while an F16 as a multi role "fighter" could strike deeper in to Russian territory.

That's probably a red line we don't need to cross.

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[deleted] t1_j6m54fk wrote

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[deleted] t1_j6mh1vm wrote

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Grammarnazi_bot t1_j6mwwfa wrote

Approximately only 50% of Ukrainians can speak English, and the Ukrainian army is not composed of professional pilots. It’s best for their national security if things are translated, because a coin flip on whether or not they’ll easily learn things is not exactly a good thing

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IAmAPaidActor t1_j6myrp9 wrote

Snarky response: Less than 50% of Ukrainians are flying F16s 😉

Non-snarky response: Knowing English is a requirement to fly in any meaningful capacity.

https://unitingaviation.com/news/safety/pilot-air-traffic-controller-communication/

The language of the sky is English. Anyone who is being trained to fly a jet will already know it.

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[deleted] t1_j6njjv6 wrote

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lake_titty_caca t1_j6nv1qd wrote

Do you really think there are people who speak English as a second language but can't read the alphabet?

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HumanFuture7 t1_j6p04pt wrote

There are people that speak English natively but are functionally (or literally) illiterate so yes.

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lake_titty_caca t1_j6p0gx3 wrote

People who speak English natively generally have learned it before they learn to read. So it makes sense that there are some who never learn how to read.

People who speak English as a second language are generally not learning it as an infant / toddler, so they are much more likely to be relying on written text as part of their learning process.

Just take the L.

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HumanFuture7 t1_j6p2k81 wrote

> so they are much more likely to be relying on written text as part of their learning process.

More likely =/= guaranteed. Generally when learning a new language you do indeed learn how to read/write it. However that isn't always the case. If you only have conversations with friends that speak a different language how will you learn to write that language? Especially if their alphabet is different from your own.

Here's an example.

It also goes the other way, sometimes people can read/write foreign languages but are unable to speak it.

To say that there are no people that can speak but can't read a second language (in this case, English) is just plainly wrong.

>Just take the L.

Wasn't the initial commenter, no need to be a dick

−3

TailRudder t1_j6my73b wrote

I guarantee you the pilots speak English regardless of what the general population statistics are.

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McCree114 t1_j6mevmv wrote

Yeah this is what people don't understand. It's not a videogame where Ukrainian pilots can just hop into any aircraft and go. All these Abrams, Bradleys, Patriot systems, etc that we're sending over will require conversions and training/retraining for the crews and maintenance techs.

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DavidsWorkAccount t1_j6lpd87 wrote

Plus, someone would have to fly the planes there. That would put US troops within the war, which Biden has been straining not to do. I think Biden even mentioned this when they first asked.

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Rinzack t1_j6m2sp6 wrote

Fly F-16s to Poland. Ukrainian pilots who've been trained overseas hop into the jets and fly them into Ukrainian airspace. Solves the issue entirely

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ZestycloseAd7083 t1_j6le0yf wrote

Why not? They initially crossed the line. Eventually Ukraine will carry out more bombings in Russia.

−54

gangmasterfader t1_j6lhflz wrote

I think that most tax-paying Americans can justify sending arms for Ukraine to defend itself, but don't want to have anything to do with funding offensive operations on Russian soil. We'd have nothing to gain.

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MoonRakerWindow t1_j6ln0au wrote

No that my opinion matters in the grand scheme, but this is what I want for Ukraine:

  • Ukraine retakes all of its territory, including Crimea.

  • Ukraine pushes Russian forces off its soil.

  • Ukraine is in a position to defend itself from future attacks.

Although I get the strategic logic of striking Russia to help further those 3 goals, I think it would cause more problems than it solves.

After Ukraine retakes all of its territory, pushes Russia out, and these is an end to hostilities, THEN it makes sense for Ukraine to acquire more long range weapons. They would provide a strong deterrent from Russia invading again.

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pegothejerk t1_j6lkinw wrote

I don't know about nothing to gain, there's always something to gain even from the worst choices, but there's definitely far more advantage to keeping Russia in a proxy war in a border country to Russia rather than spilling it into their country and then into ours.

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[deleted] t1_j6llv31 wrote

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pegothejerk t1_j6lnu8d wrote

You wouldn't have to tuck when you perform drag, you'd fit in tighter jean, you wouldn't have to wonder if it's really average size anymore, you'd no longer have to fear your dick getting cut off anymore, you could focus more on prostate orgasms, all sorts of things. Lots of downsides, too, of course.

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Jeremycycles t1_j6mnsif wrote

F16's would absolutely decimate Russian tank forces. It is the golden standard for air to surface combat, and it doesn't need support aircraft to protect it since it is also very capable against air attacks.

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Panaka t1_j6nn763 wrote

All that doesn’t matter if the plane can’t get within weapons range of their target. Currently the Russians are using long range weapons to suppress the Ukrainian Air Force, mainly from within Russia. In order to hit tanks, they’d first have to knock out Migs and S-300/400 in Russia. The weapons the F-16 uses to engage in BVR fights like this aren’t something most of NATO want to send.

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monogreenforthewin t1_j6mhbpo wrote

flight training is pretty intensive whether it be helicopter or fighter jet. like if we gave them the cliff's notes version and prayed it's like 2 years

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theoldgreenwalrus t1_j6lculw wrote

Biden has a tough job of balancing helping Ukraine and not starting WWIII. I think he's done pretty well so far. We can help Ukraine in other ways without F-16s

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Dontbeevil2 t1_j6lil8y wrote

ATACMS and tomahawk cruise missiles would work. :)

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bingcognito t1_j6mr3rq wrote

Swarms of Bradley IFVs strikes me as a pretty formidable alternative.

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[deleted] t1_j6mkjdc wrote

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No_Hana t1_j6mond7 wrote

Somehow way better than the last guy tho.

Do you wanna read some transcripts? Or parrot nonsense?

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flaker111 t1_j6lenz2 wrote

tbh WWWIII will happen at some point. we as a species waste so much time, energy and skill into killing each other.....

really wish we had aliens so we can all finally have the same goals ie not die by aliens

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rookie-number t1_j6lfbyc wrote

If aliens could make it all the way here theyll likely be able to obliterate us all from orbit

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strik3r2k8 t1_j6lnmsc wrote

More likely they’ll just start a global conflict without even announcing their presence.

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Draker-X t1_j6llesm wrote

>tbh WWWIII will happen at some point

Then let's try to make it 150 years from now rather than, say, tomorrow.

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monogreenforthewin t1_j6mhjxe wrote

honestly it's probably safer to have now then 150 years of WMD development before we do. not saying i want to happen or anything but massive damage and loss of life is better than world ending damage and loss of life.

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crackhousebob t1_j6m5h3k wrote

It takes years to train combat pilots and the ground crews to operate an F-16 squadron. Then Ukraine has to be able to handle the logistics of fuel, armament, and maintenance all while actively at war.

By the time the Ukrainian air force is up to speed, the war will likely be over.

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jlaw54 t1_j6opgsg wrote

The training and logistics issues keep getting thrown around, except they keep getting overcome again and again. Patriot batteries are massively complex and they are moving ahead just fine.

NATO and the US aren’t just providing weapons systems, they have also focused on training how to use them and also how to re-supply and maintain them. Creating a modern, efficient logistics infrastructure is a MASSIVE focus in Ukraine by the US and western powers. And it’s working.

People consistently underestimate the adaptability of human beings. People also consistently underestimate what is possible during war. The impossible has been done time and time again in the history of humankind when it comes to war. And the covert action supporting logistical and other efforts inside Ukraine should not be discounted. They have advisors helping them each and every step of the way.

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geriatric-sanatore t1_j6oxtj8 wrote

Patriot missile operators take 13 weeks to train from this is what they look like too certified to go to war and use them. F16 pilot takes 18 months and that's not including time spent in classroom and sere training and land and water survival training and officer training which wouldn't be relevant to already certified pilots. To go from joined Air Force too piloting an F16 takes about 2 years or more depending on training availability.

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crackhousebob t1_j6oxzc8 wrote

It can be done for sure but it will take far longer than Ukraine has time for. Russia is attacking now. Ukraine is stil rife with corruption. A government minister already was caught overspending aid money on food supplies and taking a kick-back. 4th generation fighter jets are vastly more complicated than tanks, howitzers, and missle systems and corrupt officials and criminal groups need a bribe for anything to happen.

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wessneijder t1_j6pbk5z wrote

“Britain's Ministry of Defence said the Russian force in the new Vuhledar assault was at least the size of a brigade, a unit typically comprising several thousand troops.

The Russians had advanced hundreds of metres across a river toward Vuhledar and could make more localised gains there, the ministry said in an unusually detailed daily intelligence update. It said the assault on Vuhledar was unlikely to lead to a significant breakthrough, but could be intended to draw Ukrainian efforts away from defending Bakhmut.”

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DaveFromBPT t1_j6owpbt wrote

Maybe Sweden can give them some Saab Grippens

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[deleted] t1_j6lim1d wrote

[deleted]

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Moynamama t1_j6ljjvg wrote

Withholding aid? What kind of drugs are you on? In what world is $113 billion military and other assistance in a year withholding aid?

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Bitter_Director1231 t1_j6mmugz wrote

It's sounds like we aren't helping them, but the logistics to get this going is massive. Plus they can be used to go much deeper past the border of Ukraine , which would result in NATO getting dragged into conflict we don't want.

Arming them with anti aircraft and tanks in plentiful amounts is the best strategy we can give them.

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Al_Bundy_14 t1_j6os2s7 wrote

It’s for the best. If 1 guy went on a rogue bombing run inside Russia shit would hit the fan.

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Left_Ya_Dirty t1_j6ms71v wrote

I’m a little worried that over diversification of equipment is going to create a distraction within the Ukrainian military.

−1

Indy_IT_Guy t1_j6n8ruu wrote

It might, but honestly if you look at the history of warfare, it’s pretty common.

Even in World War II, you saw the Axis forces using the weapons of the conquered nations to augment what they could produced, as well as some of the Allied nations as well.

Going further back, WWI had all sides doing that. The same with the American Civil War, where both sides were using anything they could get their hands on.

It does cause challenges… but on the other hand, something is better than nothing.

That all being said, this whole thing about sending them Abrams is dumb. They didn’t even want them. They wanted Leopards, but the Germans refused to send some and allow other nations (like Poland) to send theirs unless the U.S. sent Abrams.

So we send a token force that end up sitting somewhere or maybe make up a specialized unit, and the Ukrainians get what they actually wanted.

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wessneijder t1_j6pb4pw wrote

Nowadays weapons systems are much more complicated than point and shoot turret in a WWII sherman

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D_REASONABLE_OPPZ t1_j6mpvq9 wrote

Duh.

Because it's obviously the F-15s you need to be using if you want to overturn the government.

−3

jens-2420 t1_j6mitct wrote

One of the real questions is: Do „we“ want Ukraine to win the war and Russia to lose?

Or will we be content with a final stand-off, parts of Ukraine gone, and EU paying for the rebuilding of the rest-Ukraine? And everybody preparing for the next Russian invasion.

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CptPottawatomieBrown t1_j6mwnvn wrote

So how much does it take? Aircraft carriers? Subs? Nukes? At some point there is a lien where we can’t give them more shit.

−5

jens-2420 t1_j6mwzhe wrote

Stationing nuclear weapons would stop the war probably. But it is a slow escalation movement to test the enemy.

−5

Admirable_Nothing t1_j6lfwy2 wrote

I would think Ukraine would be better off with A-10s than F-16s.

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Ok-Seaworthiness4488 t1_j6lq7vk wrote

A10s work against enemies that don't have good anti-aircraft defense since they fly really slow. Not ideal against s300 or s400s

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Pollia t1_j6lptki wrote

A-10s are flying death traps that also have some of the worst friendly fire incidents on record in modern times.

The story around them absolutely does not match up with the reality.

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Agent_Kid t1_j6m859w wrote

Especially with both sides using the same equipment. It'd be a recipe for disaster.

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pEppapiGistfuhrer t1_j6m9jod wrote

The A-10 would be utterly useless, its a bad aircraft that was outdated when it came out and only useable against insurgents armed 50's technology. They didnt even have any up to date optics or observation systems and instead the pilot had to use literal binoculars to spot targets which led to some of the highest amounts friendly fire incidents recorded with combat aircraft

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Todesfaelle t1_j6mefyh wrote

Sounds very "let's build a frame around this gun then ask questions later".

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Prophet_of_Entropy t1_j6o70vn wrote

it was a plane designed to give the US 7 days. 7 days of delaying the soviet armored push into the fulda gap. they werent expected to stop it, just give time for NATO to do something.

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Admirable_Nothing t1_j6oy0ok wrote

Spoken like a true Jet jockey, that will fly over w about 20 minutes loiter time and swoop down so fast they can't lay down accurate fire for shit, expend a ridiculously light load of ordnance and head back to the concrete airconditioned O Club to have another gin and tonic. All the while the A-10 is hanging around laying down accurate fire and making a difference to the grunt on the ground. Yep, he will get shot up while doing it but that broken airframe will carry him home to fight another day.

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allannon t1_j6lrq6g wrote

I'd honestly think something like a Super Turcano over A-10.

They don't have the bitchin' gun, but are still in actual production and probably simpler.

But I don't think either would be a great option for contested airspace.

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strik3r2k8 t1_j6lnq61 wrote

That brrrrrt is some good psychological warfare.

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senselesssht t1_j6m4gd1 wrote

Stupid title OP. Actual title: Western allies differ over jets for Ukraine as Russia claims gains

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joshemerson OP t1_j6n20f6 wrote

The rules of this sub state that the title of the post needs to match the title of the article. If you don’t like the title, take that up with the author of the article.

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ggood2 t1_j6oc052 wrote

But your title and the article don't have matching titles.

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joshemerson OP t1_j6ocadg wrote

I copied and pasted it. That was yesterday. I’ve seen news sites change article titles.. I think it’s stupid, but I’m assuming it’s cause the original title wasn’t getting enough clicks.

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jhachko t1_j6myued wrote

Differ or dither? This is the same slow creeping path that took us to tanks.

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kache4korpses t1_j6lgoy5 wrote

I am concerned that EU and US will piss off Russian/Putin to the point he will sell NW to Iran.

−30

ConstantAmazement t1_j6lmpza wrote

Hasn't it occurred to you that the modern state of Iran is capable of making nuclear weapons all by itself? Think about it! North Korea has them. Iran is well aware that Israel would bomb them if they actually acquired them.

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TheCh0rt t1_j6lmwvp wrote

Perhaps trading drones and ammo for nuclear information.

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roararoarus t1_j6liq69 wrote

Or provide support for Iran in its drive to develop nuclear weapons. Look how N Korea is behaving since the Ukraine War.

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PPQue6 t1_j6ll6ls wrote

> Look how N Korea is behaving since the Ukraine War.

The same as always....?

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roararoarus t1_j6ln7wg wrote

They've launched over 90 missiles in 2022, far more than any year

−4

PPQue6 t1_j6lnwyc wrote

Well I'm sure dear leader is starved for attention since Putin stole his thunder

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ReverendDerp t1_j6m8l73 wrote

I'm not seeing much of anyone else else saying it; Joe Biden is a bitch.

−38

FelixSupro t1_j6lk9kh wrote

What would you do if I told you the Biden admin instigated this entire war on Nov 10th, 2021 with the signing of the US-Ukraine Charter of Strategic Partnership? Also, what if I said they will intentionally drag our country into to war to divert from their abysmal economic policies that have caused the greatest depletion in household savings since WWII? Open your eyes. The modern dem party is 90% lawyers. It’s a club of the elite and soon our fellow citizens will be cannon fodder

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Draker-X t1_j6llm2b wrote

>What would you do if I told you the Biden admin instigated this entire war on Nov 10th, 2021 with the signing of the US-Ukraine Charter of Strategic Partnership?

Ignore you like I ignore the crazy people on the street that also babble bullshit?

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FelixSupro t1_j6lm6c8 wrote

Babble bullshit? really?? directly from the state dept. Putin is a maniac, no question but the dude has said publicly for 20 years he wouldn’t tolerate US missles on his border. Would we tolerate Russian missles in Toronto pointed at us? You Reddit loons are living in a bubble.. Here’s the link btw… In your weak minds, “Putin’s Price Hike!” 😂🤣

https://www.state.gov/u-s-ukraine-charter-on-strategic-partnership/

−54

ConstantAmazement t1_j6lm37c wrote

Wow! Quite the gaslighting fear-monger, aren't you!

What would you do if I told you that Russia instigated this entire war by unjustifiably invading a sovereign country? Also, what if I reminded you that the largest modern tax breaks for the top 10% have devastated our national economy? Open your eyes? The modern Repub party also wants to end Medicare and Social Security. Stop voting against your own interests. Support your progressive candidates.

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muricanviking t1_j6n0oeo wrote

Leave the crazy man to yell into the void by himself, no point in trying to engage with someone this far removed from reality

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FelixSupro t1_j6lmhxd wrote

you realize the wealthiest party by far is the democrat party? It’s not even close!! Look up the data of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the entire country and then view their party association.. Those evil republicans tho.. It’s quite simple.. control the media, control the masses..

−50

OrduninGalbraith t1_j6ltequ wrote

Cities by and large lean more democrat, neighborhoods in cities are far wealthier than Jimbobs farm on 123 Podunk Lane. There you go mystery solved.

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IAmAPaidActor t1_j6na10s wrote

Cities with good education, health services, and worker rights are wealthier and lean Democrat. I wonder why…

It must be that they’re stealing it all. That has to be it 🙄

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ConstantAmazement t1_j6lt083 wrote

No one knows what you stand for. Take a look at your downvotes and buy a clue. Start being a part of the solution.

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UsedToBsmart t1_j6llihj wrote

What would you do if I told you the earth is round and COVID isn’t like the flu?

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[deleted] t1_j6llmxv wrote

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TheCh0rt t1_j6ln0k6 wrote

You’re right. I really had no idea. Thanks man

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