teddy_002 t1_j108sj5 wrote on December 20, 2022 at 6:51 PM

Reply to comment by Ickyson in Brooklyn pastor who was robbed while preaching charged with wire fraud and lying to FBI in unrelated case by Octavus

religion is not a scientific system, why would it be scientifically proven? that’s not what religion is about. antitheists have an obsession with religion being some quantifiable scientific system, which is an incredibly bad faith argument.

religion is about faith in humanity and the world, that which is beyond quantifiable means. it is not about understanding the world, it is about understanding humanity and the human experience.

Ickyson t1_j112n41 wrote on December 20, 2022 at 10:05 PM

I genuinely love these counterpoints and this conversation so far. This is very intriguing and insightful. Thank you for your responses.

I never said it was scientific in nature, but cannot be proven with science and that is extremely abnormal on our planet, in my opinion.

I do recognize your points and they are strong, but the way religion is highly institutionalized takes away from our points in my opinion.

I would argue religion exists to do just that, make sense of the life we are living on earth and after. This the control that comes from fear. Add a sense of urgency, surely someone will bit. But you know who else would sell Jesus Christ? A certain angel by the name of Satan.

Faith is the belief you will wake up tomorrow. Not the belief that an all knowing power will magically allow the born disabled to walk tomorrow.

teddy_002 t1_j131h9i wrote on December 21, 2022 at 8:19 AM

i agree, this is a good conversation. i think you make a very interesting point, ironically one that is often debated within theology - the difference between religion and faith.

i’m a theology student, and also a Quaker. we don’t have any dogma, or a hierarchy, so are able to avoid a lot of the potential dangers of those being corrupted. i agree that highly institutionalised religion is a danger - the catholic church is a good example of this, it has many wonderful people within its ranks, yet also has some truly evil people who have caused untold damage.

it’s interesting you make that point about it helping to make sense of life, i actually have a very similar viewpoint. religion, IMO, is a way of making tangible the intangible. the idea that we are all alone, in an apathetic world, with no meaning or purpose can be unbearable. faith provides us with a way of giving ourselves meaning, and allowing us to embrace our humanity.

overall, i think you make a really great point, one i often argue for myself as a theology student - the difference between personal faith and institutional religion. whilst institutional religion is a mixed bag, weighed down by corruption, control and zealotry, personal faith is a powerful antidote to the inherent apathy of our existence, and when applied with earnest, creates a vision of true humanity and love.

ironically it’s an often misquoted karl marx quote that i think sums this up well:

“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.”

Ickyson t1_j14k6uj wrote on December 21, 2022 at 4:55 PM

I love your response here. What great points you have made again.

It’s hard to counter those, and after our conversation, maybe the right way for me to frame my opinion is:

Institutionalized religion is negative on the world and has negative impacts, more than positive impacts, at least from my point of view. Faith, on the other hand, is a necessary point of life. For living, relationships, love, and growth. Knowing there will be a tomorrow when it feels there can’t be one.

dion_o t1_j125yex wrote on December 21, 2022 at 2:55 AM

If religion stuck to abstract spiritual concepts then that's possibly true. But religious teachings move beyond this and assert facts. Like the earth is X years old, evolution is fake, there is an afterlife, if you believe in god you will be rewarded in X way. Once you start asserting facts, and especially asserting cause and effect then your belief system is in principle testable and therefore subject to scienrific proof. So you skirt around the issue and say that anti theists act in bad faith by expecting religion to satisfy scientific principles.

Consider an analogous belief system: that of Santa Claus. Certain facts are asserted: there's a big fat guy in a sleigh who lives at the north pole and rewards kids on Xmas eve who believe in him. In principle everything that is asserted there is testable. But when you start doing so the inability to find his workshop is conveniently brushed away by saying things like he uses magic to hide his location. Or if I set up a surveillance system to catch him on Xmas eve when he comes to my house to bring me presents then when he doesn't come its because I didn't believe hard enough in him. There's always some reason for the complete lack of evidence. So it is with religion. If I just "believe harder" then god will reveal himself to me and I'll get the proof I need.