I feel like if you do this two things will happen, one delivery apps will just add another fee to the end bill, and two people will stop tipping drivers entirely as they are hourly employees now and SHOULD not get tips. both of these things are negative that outweighs the benefits, maybe the problem is oversupply of delivery drivers and better management of this, if your sitting around all night waiting for a delivery maybe you should be someplace else rather than expected to be pay for sitting on your ass waiting for a delivery.
Comments
Starr-48 t1_izgpvrx wrote
Im all for workers making more money, but this arrangement does sound like a classic perverse incentive...
FarFromSane_ t1_izop3k4 wrote
I average $24 an hour including any time between deliveries. I don’t want this shit law messing me up.
OhBall t1_izfola6 wrote
The article says that the hourly wage would be for “trip time” IE time spent actually making deliveries, not sitting around like you suggested in you post. And why is ending tipping a bad thing if the workers can expect reasonable pay for their time? Why force them to essentially gamble their time away on whether they’ll receive a fair tip?
OHYAMTB t1_izinhno wrote
Seems like incentive to take longer on a delivery, no?
OhBall t1_izl66ex wrote
Fair point. I think there’d certainly need to be some safeguards in place. But if I drag my feet at work I get reprimanded then fired. If someone is consistently taking longer than the amount of time that traffic should allow for, or receiving complaints, then there could be repercussions there.
And to the point about workers sitting around getting paid despite no deliveries coming in, I’m not entirely sold that people shouldn’t be paid to be on-call. After all if it’s a slow day at a pizzeria the cashier still makes the same amount. Sure they’d have to limit the number of people making deliveries at a given time, but half as many people being paid real wages might be better than twice that many being paid poverty wages and kept on the hook in hopes of a windfall. (I know the person this is replying to didn’t bring this up but I’m just thinking out loud here)
_Maxolotl t1_iziu4no wrote
"delivery apps will just add another fee to the end of the bill"
-If that ensures riders get paid fair wages, fine.
"people will stop tipping delivery drivers entirely"
-Servers in a lot of NYC restaurants make $23 bucks an hour or more before tips, and they still get tipped. Douchebags may want to stop tipping delivery riders entirely, but a significant percentage of local douchebags probably already tip meagerly or not at all.
Can deliveristas communicate with each other and blacklist customers on a forum that the apps can't control? Seems like if people who didn't tip stopped getting their orders accepted, it might have an effect on tipping. There are some restrictions on how independent contractors are allowed to organize due to unintended consequences of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act, but I'm pretty sure they can still tell each other "that customer sucks. don't serve them."
MajorAcer t1_izj14eq wrote
I would greatly prefer the food to be slightly more expensive if we could just get rid of tipping. It's ridiculous that I'm already paying for food and service, but am still expected to give up extra cash for no reason whatsoever - especially when it's before I even get the food so who knows how good the quality of service even is? And this is coming from someone who used to deliver for Uber Eats.
_Maxolotl t1_izj6yj2 wrote
It would be great if we could force the delivery apps to classify riders as employees.
It'd also be great if the US hadn't made a bunch of laws in the 20th century that makes it much more difficult for workers to unionize and strike than it is in most of the rest of the free world.
I would be happy with deliveristas getting $23/hour for an 8 hour shift... if they got health benefits and death benefits, because it's one of the most dangerous jobs in NYC.
Until we can make that happen, I will fully support them if they manage to organize well enough to successfully boycott bad tippers. They gotta get what they need. It's the law's fault they don't have easy ways to do that.
puckeredstarfish69 t1_izp8zwj wrote
Deliveristas? You gotta be shittin me.
_Maxolotl t1_izpi4q5 wrote
That's one of the names that delivery worker organizers use.
jl2l OP t1_izfl335 wrote
William Medina, a delivery worker in Queens, waits for orders to trickle in from DoorDash and Grubhub. Thirty minutes can go by without a single order. Sometimes an hour.
He gets paid by the order, so no order, no money.
“I’m always ready,” said Mr. Medina, 38, an immigrant from Colombia, who makes an average of $150 to $200, mostly in tips, for up to 12 hours of work.
Mr. Medina is one of more than 60,000 app-based food delivery workers who race across the city to serve hungry New Yorkers. Many put in long hours, while braving nasty storms, flooding, speeding drivers and thieves.
The workers banded together in the summer of 2020 as Los Deliveristas Unidos. Mr. Medina, who is an outspoken member, and his colleagues are demanding better pay and working conditions, arguing that they are part of a booming industry. Since delivery workers are independent contractors, they are not covered by minimum wage laws and basic employee protections such as workers’ compensation insurance.
Now, as a result of their efforts, Uber Eats, Grubhub, DoorDash and other app services may soon have to pay workers like Mr. Medina significantly more, as the city moves to regulate pay practices in the largest food delivery market in the country.
Under a proposal by the city’s Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, the app services would be required to pay an average hourly rate of at least $23.82, not including tips, to delivery workers by 2025. The agency, which will hold a Dec. 16 hearing on the proposal, is expected to implement it early next year.
The minimum hourly rate would apply to a worker’s total “trip time” each week, which would be calculated from the moment a worker accepts an order to when the delivery is completed. It would include the time it takes to go to a restaurant and wait for the order, as well as any traffic delays. The rate would be phased in over two years, starting at $17.87 per hour next year.
The app services would also have to pay the minimum hourly rate on the total amount of “on-call time” that all the delivery workers collectively spend waiting for orders each week. However, the proposal currently leaves it up to each company to decide exactly how these payments would be made.
The city’s proposal has drawn criticism from the app companies, who warn that it would increase their labor and delivery costs, and could result in higher prices for customers and fewer orders for restaurants. They also say that it would undermine a delivery system that currently allows workers to plan flexible schedules.
Josh Gold, a spokesman for Uber Eats, said the service would be forced to “aggressively manage supply and demand” to reduce waiting times for workers. He said that could mean limiting the number of people who could sign up for peak hours in popular neighborhoods.
“It’s going to create a different set of problems,” Mr. Gold said. “These workers are going to be pitted against each other to get the best time and location.”
LouisSeize t1_izfztla wrote
>Hildalyn Colón Hernández, the director of policy for Los Deliveristas Unidos, said food delivery workers should be compensated for their time just like other essential workers. “Firefighters don’t just get paid when they have a fire,” she said. “They get paid for the time they are waiting in the firehouse for that call. We’re asking for the same thing.”
!?
jl2l OP t1_izgergi wrote
Because FDNY job involves going into a burning building and potentially dying, whereas their job involves riding electric bicycle less than 5 mi and back.
Cokrates t1_izipuxv wrote
delivery drivers in nyc have the highest instance of work related fatality of any industry in the city including fire and police.
Gimme_The_Loot t1_izubv5h wrote
I would 10000% not want to be zipping around on one of those bikes with the constant pressure of moving as fast as possible at all times. I have no stats to back it but I would definitely assume it's dangerous af
Cokrates t1_j0082us wrote
yeah for that reason I stick to Queens rather than Manhattan. But I should say in relation to the orginal comment the FDNY and NYPD put their life on the line every day for a very noble cause, us as delivery guys just happen to die more on the job.
_Maxolotl t1_izht7ik wrote
I found seven news stories about delivery guys dying on the job in NYC in the last 12 months. First two pages of google search results. I might not have found every incident.
Dec. 14, 2021: Salvador Navarette-Flores. Hit an illegally parked truck. https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2021/12/14/moped-rider-killed-in-crash-with-truck-in-illegal-loading-zone-cops-and-a-witness-says/
Christmas Eve, 2021: Taurino Rosendo Morales
https://abc7ny.com/new-york-city-upper-east-side-delivery-worker-struck-pedestrian/11390331/
April 30, 2022. Zhiwen Yan.
Allegedly murdered over sauce, by a customer who later killed himself: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/diner-pleads-not-guilty-to-killing-nyc-delivery-worker-over-condiment-dispute/3719042/
July 3, 2022. Christian Catalan. Hit and run:
https://abc7ny.com/bronx-delivery-worker-killed-christian-catalan-hit-and-run-driver/12029766/
July 11, 2022, Eduardo Valencia. Crashed into a pole. https://www.ourtownny.com/news/vigil-continues-for-ues-cyclist-killed-in-crash-DC2141445
August 4, 2022: Daniel Vidal. Run over by a truck. https://www.ny1.com/nyc/brooklyn/news/2022/08/06/food-delivery-worker-run-over-by-truck-after-falling-off-motorcycle
August 14, 2022. Be Tran. Age 74. Hit and Run:
https://www.today.com/food/news/doordash-delivery-worker-killed-hit-run-rcna44012
FineAunts t1_izi8j86 wrote
Not to start a pissing contest but I'd be curious how many FDNY died on the job in the past couple of years vs delivery workers.
_Maxolotl t1_iziswow wrote
from 2002 through this year, one to three FDNY firefighters or EMTs have died on the job each year, except in 2005, when four died. https://ufanyc.org/line-of-duty-deaths/
sagenumen t1_izibr0v wrote
It’s irrelevant. If the job exists, the person doing it should be able to thrive on the wage.
sagenumen t1_iziby9k wrote
You sound like a real peach. Delivery drivers deserve a fair wage. If $23 brings them up to FDNY’s level, then the discussion should be around why our first responders are compensated so poorly, not that we should pay our delivery people less.
_Maxolotl t1_izitq3g wrote
FDNY and NYPD both use low starting salaries with fast raises as a retention strategy. By year 5, FDNY firefighters make $85k/year, before overtime and holiday pay, and they get four week paid vacation.
OP doesn't care about fair wages though. OP just doesn't want to pay much to have somebody risk their life in traffic to bring him Chik-fil-a. Personally, I enjoy living in a city where if I don't feel like cooking, I get to go for a walk and have a wide variety of choices of where to pick up food.
sagenumen t1_izj28ys wrote
Right. OP's is an absolute trash position.
_Maxolotl t1_izj6cug wrote
It seems like there's a huge number of people who DGAF about delivery workers, unfortunately.
sagenumen t1_izj7r6f wrote
But probably think nothing of firing up Seamless for dinner in the rain.
_Maxolotl t1_izj8vt2 wrote
people who talk about how much they hate the ebikes happily order dinner for their whole family in mid february.
People who tell me it's impossible to use a bike as primary transportation in NYC because of winter also happily order dinner in a blizzard. If a 74 year old Vietnamese dude who sleeps on a crappy mattress and commutes to Manhattan from outer Queens to do deliveries can ride a bike all day in winter, any white collar office worker with no major physical disability can handle 45 minutes to and from work.
[deleted] t1_izjai49 wrote
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_Maxolotl t1_izjn97i wrote
Because we don't know if we're both attracted to the other, or if we're both single and/or poly, or if we both have penis and/or strap ons.
And I don't think we're going to find out, because this is not an appropriate forum to ask on, and we both seem relatively polite.
jl2l OP t1_izjnxaa wrote
Love connection denied. Well at least you shot your shot.
jl2l OP t1_izj9pxs wrote
You're a moron if you think firemen make $23 an hour
sagenumen t1_izjio53 wrote
Lol. I don't know what FDNY pays and nowhere did I pretend to. I certainly hope it's more than $23/hr. The point is that we shouldn't be discussing how to pay certain people less. Delivery workers should be making at least $23/hr.
jl2l OP t1_izjjdqh wrote
Okay having been on the inside of how these delivery apps work I can tell you that once you make delivery workers employees what happens is managers ward over their shifts and treat them like shit they play favorites and people get screwed. The Independence is the only leverage that the drivers actually have and companies like DoorDash when they turn them into employees are going to leverage that against each other and all these delivery workers are just going to get laid off. What's better having two delivery workers that work at the restaurant or having 18 16 of which come from DoorDash. Restaurants that employ delivery workers should pay them at least $23 an hour what shouldn't be allowed is for DoorDash to bombard those restaurants with different drivers and screw those people over.
sagenumen t1_izjw7g7 wrote
Capitalists are going to capitalist. They are always going to work the system and eke out every penny. That does not mean the workers should be impoverished to make it work.
puckeredstarfish69 t1_izp9b27 wrote
Fucking delusional
my5cent t1_izjaivv wrote
I do my own walking. Those who can afford to have food delivery are rich people imo. This will probably affect Amazon too imo if passed and making products maybe more expensive.
[deleted] t1_izjbu0u wrote
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lovely-donkey t1_izghrpp wrote
I support this. New York has so many restaurants within walking distance. This should be a luxury service anyway.
shant_jan t1_izj0l4j wrote
seriously every "how much do i tip" post has schmucks in manhattan being like "it's my god given capitalist right to order a sandwich from the corner of my block and refuse to tip the person who brings it to me."
MajorAcer t1_izj1siw wrote
Yes because everyone is in walking distance of incredible restaurants in this city. There's no one that might be a 30+ minute walk from any decent restaurants, not at all.
_Maxolotl t1_izj73kh wrote
Get a bike.
MajorAcer t1_izj92n2 wrote
I have one, and? I don't personally use delivery services because I think the cost is stupid as hell, but let's not act like everyone lives in Chelsea where they can walk out of their door and have 15 different types of cuisine at their doorstep.
FineAunts t1_izi8sam wrote
I wish people would chime in with their thoughts instead of just downvoting you. I think you have a point.
lovely-donkey t1_izije2e wrote
The way I see it: the state is essentially subsidizing all these businesses to operate in NYC. Because doordash won’t pay a stable, living wage- the state will need to step in and support these workers- food stamps, housing etc.
Why must the general taxpayer subsidize businesses to operate when they’re not exactly an essential service (like groceries or pharmacies)?
There’s a small minority of disabled New Yorkers who may need to order in on a regular basis, but disability benefits should cover for that
[deleted] t1_izfo3mu wrote
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jl2l OP t1_izh99s0 wrote
I assume you tip your Uber driver for your $60 Uber for that 20 minute ride?
_Maxolotl t1_izhb8p8 wrote
20% every time. I don't uber that often. I don't order in that often either. Being chauffeured in a city that's easy to get around without a car is a luxury. Having food delivered in a city where it's easy to go pick ip food is a luxury.
drpvn t1_izgif87 wrote
>The minimum hourly rate would apply to a worker’s total “trip time” each week, which would be calculated from the moment a worker accepts an order to when the delivery is completed.
So the longer it takes to deliver the food, the more the delivery worker gets paid?