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ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6cmpy6 wrote

Reply to comment by beachape in 50% of ALL of SEPTA's problems can be solved overnight by installing barriers that prevent gate hopping on Broad and MFL lines by scatterbrainedpast

Everyone is going to dislike this, but this is why you make it free. With free transit, now EVERYONE boards without paying and the bus driver does his job and drives! You can also board from both doors!

Boston did this and found that buses that with free fares ran increased ridership and actually decreases travel times, because boarding and de-boarding was smooth.

Years ago I was on a regional rail that had to stop at the station and wait for police to remove a guy that didn’t pay. We waited for at least 10 minutes. Everyone had a worse experience and service up and down the line was impacted because SEPTA had to enforce the fare. If we made it free, there would have been no reason to stop! We would have continued service on time.

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bredonhill t1_j6d7pzy wrote

And then with continued decrease in state and federal funding the transit system eventually bankrupts and then no one gets to ride for free or otherwise. “Free” public transit assumes the state or federal government is fitting the bill for the whole affair. But they don’t and will continue to do less and less. Free ridership is a panacea not built on reality. If you eventually bankrupt the system and it offers far less or no service then the ones that get hurt are the poor suckers who paid their fair share all along even when it hurt. Free ridership because you can’t or won fix the problem is the wrong motivation for free ridership. It’s giving up and ceding the system to criminals and jerks. Then you have The Warriors.

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donttouchthirdrail t1_j6e2ax9 wrote

Are you or any members of your family dependent on septa for transportation. As in don’t own or have access to a car.

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ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6e4knp wrote

No. For years me or my now wife took the train every day for work. But the pandemic changed that and we both work from home.

Right now we have two cars but would absolutely get rid of one if 1) SEPTA was more accessible (meaning more trains, my lines, more service, etc.) and 2) this area was more bike friendly and invested more in bike infrastructure. We are pro-transit and pro-bike.

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donttouchthirdrail t1_j6e5luj wrote

Both of my grandparents live in New York City and are completely dependent on the subway and buses for travel. The MTA is already reducing service on the lines they live on due to budget issues, impart due to a massive increase in fare evasion. Fare dodging has real material effects on people’s lives. Making Septa free would completely annihilate their budget and mostly act as a massive subsidy for wealthy 9-5 commuters in the suburbs. Harrisburg has little interest in supporting septa and it has historically been one of the most underfunded transit agencies in the country, with a massive backlog of repairs and worthwhile expansions that have been on the back burner since the 60s. Any dollar you can get from Harrisburg should be dumped into increasing service before making fares free.

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ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6e7r3p wrote

I’m sorry for your grandparents, truly.

I don’t know the answer but free transit pilot programs in other cities seem to be working. We should try them here. We should try to make the system work better for people and that shouldn’t always be enforcement. If free transit means the buses and trains run on time because boarding and deboarding is more efficient, and it’s safer for drivers and passengers because there’s no issues with people not paying, I think we should explore that. If free transit means more people use the system because it’s now convenient and less expensive than driving, I think we should explore that.

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donttouchthirdrail t1_j6ei6az wrote

Free transit service works in cities where the RR is in the single digits, as is the modal share. KCATA is not useful service, it’s welfare for the destitute, who are the only people would take a bus that comes every two hours, because they have no choice otherwise. SEPTA is currently making ~280 million a year from fare revenue, and need to be going after riders who choose to use it because it’s convenient.

There’s a mental exercise I like to do that helps me illustrate this point. It’s called years of free transit instead of “X”, where x is the thing you want to build.

Would you rather have 4 years of free transit, or a fully ADA accessible regional rail with high level platforms.

Would you rather have 4 years of free transit, or a fully ADA accessible trolley system with new low platform cars, fully replacing the Kawasaki LRVa from the 80s.

Would you rather have 7 years of free transit, or an extension of the Broad street line up Roosevelt boulevard, serving roughly an extra 100k people per day

4 years of free transit, or new rail cars on el or the subway

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ThreePointsPhilly t1_j6eowya wrote

All fair points. These are all fair and legit questions and we should all think about them. I’ll present you with this thought experiment.

Your out-of-town friend says he’s coming to Philly for a week - part business and part pleasure. So his employer is paying for some of his meals and some of his stay, but not all. So his share…how is he paying for it? That’s easy and you don’t bat an eye - cash or card. Basically anywhere you go (Dirty Franks aside) will take a card, and everywhere will take cash.

But now, try to explain to him how he can use a bus, a train or a subway. It’s complicated! Sure the SEPTA key is fairly easy, but it’s still a barrier to using the system. How much should he load onto the card? Why can’t he just use cash in a train? Or can you but only the exact fare? It’s a bit confusing if you’re an out of towner to use - heck, it might be confusing if you’re in Philly and only use SEPTA once or twice a year.

Now reverse the situation. You go visit your friend in another city. Do you have any idea how you’re supposed to pay for transit in this city? Do they take cards? Do they take Apple Pay? Do you need a SEPTA Key equivalent? Can you pay on the train/subway/bus?

Why is public transit one of the few services that’s not always intuitive how to pay for it? Again, any hotel and (most) restaurants will take a credit card. You can go to a restaurant in another city and 99 out of 100 times you can pay with a credit card. And any Uber you take is tied a card. But transit? Well, it’s a more complicated and no two cities are exactly alike.

Fares are a barrier in more ways than just financial. The complexity of fares is a barrier to ridership.

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internet_cousin t1_j6id30z wrote

Many people can ride septa for free already: senior citizens, namely, and students have discounted rates. These are great, as is the commuter pass pilot where employees of Penn, Drexel, etc got to ride for free.

Why should people who can pay not pay? It is revenue for a system that really needs it. As polls have shown, people choose not to ride septa because of issues around cleanliness and perceived safety, not because it is prohibitively expensive.

Also, as someone mentioned, there is no guarantee that the state or federal legislature will pick up the(large/increased) tab.

I am sympathetic to the idea, but will never understand the logic behind just "making it free". That seems like it would deal a death blow to an already critically ill system.

Cost is not a deterrent for most; it is convenience and comfort/perceived safety. And the "safety" part is a multifaceted issue that will only get better when the whole country responds to the opioid crisis, not just septa...

(Not trying to start a fight, just here to make hopefully salient points for a better public transit system. I never want to see a Philly without a robust septa, as annoying as they have been my whole life.)

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Dismal-Radish-7520 t1_j6i7m0k wrote

everyone responding as if the government doesnt consistently lie about money and budgets to put the burden on the people and not on their paychecks and pockets. look at how they split up the budget and how much money this city pisses into the cops mouths. there is plenty of money for everyone to ride free but instead of us all having a good time, everyone wants to foam at the mouth because god forbid that would be socialism!!

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