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kryori t1_j7nk943 wrote

Reply to comment by theronimous in 3 reasons not to be a Stoic (but try Nietzsche instead) by Apotheosical

It's literally a prayer, a request for someone else to grant you the desired qualities.

I'm not missing the conceptual parallels. I'm saying that asking someone else to grant you these traits is less stoic than accepting that you lack them now and working to develop them without having someone grant them to you.

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theronimous t1_j7nyoeb wrote

You’re too hung up on the “god” reference for your opinion to be of any value. Maybe you don’t understand “wisdom” and that is your problem.

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kryori t1_j7oth83 wrote

The god part is irrelevant. The difference in philosophy here is whether you do something yourself or beg someone else to do it for you.

I'm just saying a stoic would work to better themselves rather than asking someone else to make them a better person.

Hang on to that. You might find it to be a useful point of view, in time.

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theronimous t1_j7rpyvy wrote

|The god part is irrelevant

I don’t understand your point. The serenity prayer makes sense even if you remove the reference to ”God”. I consider it as a figure of speech, as if you are coming to the realization (on your own). An epiphany so to speak.

I highly recommend reading the Christian Bible’s book of Proverbs, even if you don’t believe in Christianity.

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cartoptauntaun t1_j7unoq2 wrote

I’m an ex-Christian and I understand your criticism but I do think it rings empty for believers.

Asking “god, grant me” is a literal request, like you said, but (in my upbringing) the appeal to god is more about humility and invoking the spiritual. By selecting this prayer and holding it in their heart a person has made the decision to focus their intentions this way. It’s a different type of communication is all.

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kryori t1_j7wswfl wrote

The root of stoicism was the understanding that the only thing one can control is themselves and their own reactions to the outside world. They knew they couldn't control the gods. So, rather than pray to Zeus for bravery or Hera for wisdom, they worked to foster bravery and wisdom within themselves. You can take their ideas and express them in prayer, but if you say that prayer is equivalent to that idea you're just wrong. The prayer adds supplication and dependence upon the divine that stoics rejected.

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cartoptauntaun t1_j7x59nn wrote

I don’t think it’s fair to equate the broad spectrum of modern religious practice and beliefs about divinity with millennium old beliefs about the Roman pantheon. It’s a little ahistorical to apply the writing of Marcus Aurelius to modern belief systems.

“They knew they couldn’t control the gods” is fundamental to many modern religions, especially non-fundamentalists, which make up the bulk of religious adherents AFAIK.

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