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ShankThatSnitch t1_jc8u6d8 wrote

Reply to comment by thormun in Researchers: Floating solar panels could provide over a third of global electricity by TurretLauncher

You vastly over estimate how much surface area it would take to generate the power we need.

That being said, we should be adding solar to all kinds of places. Roof tops, above parking lots, deserts...and so on.

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TK-741 t1_jc8xiwx wrote

Parking lots for damn sure. The others come with some complications.

Most houses are still not required to be built solar-ready. Solar installations add thousands of pounds a typical roof isn’t engineered to carry on top of the snow load. Deserts seem like a good place aside from the weathering they’d probably see from all the bloody sand.

Main take away is that we aren’t doing enough.

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Mikel_S t1_jc99ly1 wrote

Sandy deserts are the exception, not the rule. Most deserts are rocky and dry, with patches of sand that move around a usually somewhat geographically confined area.

Sandy deserts as movies and media portray them are called ergs.

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ShankThatSnitch t1_jc8y4xd wrote

I am not saying every roof needs it, but many roofs can add it, as well as city buildings, big box stores...etc

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starmartyr t1_jc954p2 wrote

Even if they are solar ready a lot of HOAs are against them because they think they are ugly.

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isaiddgooddaysir t1_jc9hmyk wrote

There is a federal law that doesn't allow HOA to stop them from being installed.

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gulgin t1_jc9igmu wrote

If society would buy in to solar in general then larger grid scale installations make much more sense than distributed panels on housing. There are a lot of roofs to put solar panels on, but there is a whole lot more open land.

Grid scale installations are significantly cheaper to maintain/install, can actually be installed in optimized geometries and stop people getting all pissy about curb appeal.

I would be great if people could buy a few hundred square feet of solar panels in a solar farm rather than putting solar on a roof.

This is definitely not to say that adding solar to a roof is bad, it is just suboptimal.

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Mad_Moodin t1_jca3d2q wrote

I mean that depends on where you live. Over here in Germany we do not have open land.

The only way you are putting solar on open land is by removing farming areas or by cutting down forest.

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gulgin t1_jcb0w72 wrote

I understand Germany is dense, but you definitely have some open land. The threshold to make rooftop solar the most efficient approach is incredibly dense, pretty much constant dense urban sprawl for an entire nation. Solar installations can replace a field, but a single field can replace entire neighborhoods worth of rooftop solar.

The point I am making is that the distributed infrastructure required, awkward installation geometry and therefore overall inefficiency means that rooftop solar is about 50% less “useful” compared to the equivalent panels in a grid scale facility.

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Angiellide t1_jca6pwm wrote

Utility scale solar (putting all the panels in one place) has enormous advantages over distributed solar (putting panels in random places all over). With the costs averaged out, energy from distributed panels can easily be 10x more than solar energy that comes from utility scale locations. Higher energy prices are regressive, meaning they hurt the poor more than they hurt the rich, and imo should not be encouraged when a cheaper option exists that is environmentally similar.

Also research the duck curve. Until we solve storage, there are certain places that shouldn’t have more solar installed.

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ShankThatSnitch t1_jcahxw4 wrote

Well, obviously, utility scale is the main focus, but as technology improves and costs curves keep coming down, I see no reason why we won't come up with cost effective thin films that can line all kind of things.

As for storage, I agree, that is the biggest hurdle, but there are many ideas being researched for that. Solar is still a relatively small % of electricity, so storage can be figured out as we scale up.

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Angiellide t1_jcak36g wrote

It’s not just a matter of creating energy but of managing the grid. The power on the lines needs to be balanced with the load in real time second by second. Generation sources need to be shut off and turned on to make that happen but solar panels are difficult to impossible to shut off. More or less they need to be covered physically which can’t be done on distributed solar.

During much of the day real time electricity prices are actually negative. We don’t need radically more day time electricity from slapping thin film in every place we can think of. The priority needs to be on the ability to manage the grid or else we force more stable, lower or no carbon sources of energy offline & need to rely on natural gas peakers for the dark hours when we have most energy demand. The combo of just solar & natural gas is potentially worse for the environment than no solar but better managed non-renewable plants.

Don’t confuse this with me being against sustainable energy. The grid management aspect of solar is just really poorly understood and leads to a lot of pressure for things that don’t align with the real goals.

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ShankThatSnitch t1_jcamdpl wrote

Yes, our grid also needs upgrading. This is very true and not well understood. But local solar would first power local stuff, and then runoff would be sent to storage facilities, which could also be local, with the next step being municipal. Those could be battery, chemical, mechanical, hydrolic...etc

Of course, all of this has to be done at cost, or else it is useless. But again, as solar scales up, these other things are being worked on, too. Solar is still only like 3-4% of total electricity, so this will all take many years.

I actually work at a public power company, and I hear them talk about the challenges that need to be worked out with the grid and rooftop solar...etc. But this stuff is hardly the biggest challenge humans have tackled.

We have built out massive infrastructure for oil, coal, and gas extraction and refining. Pipelines, gas station networks, and war machines to secure energy sources around the world. We can certainly figure out a well managed solar power network. It just takes time.

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Angiellide t1_jcap17m wrote

I’m surprised to hear you say you work at a public power company while also imagining that local solar could power local things and “runoff” could be sent elsewhere. That isn’t how electricity works at all. You can’t control where an electron goes once released into the grid and the frequency needs to be maintained within a very narrow range so the load needs to exist at the same time the energy is created. Having solar on your roof doesn’t mean you get “your” electrons powering your house.

I’m not really sure we can continue this when you’re going to say “yes but storage” .. electricity going to storage is also a load — i.e. we can have more solar when we’re prepared at utility scale to need it .. why would we build utility’s scale batteries and also not build the utility’s scale solar to go with it but still have any need to put thin film everywhere. Regardless of progress, distributed solar will never be cheaper than utility because distributed has unique installations that don’t benefit from scale or learning.

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ShankThatSnitch t1_jcast7x wrote

You are assuming some weird scenario where we build out local solar, with none of the other components in place. Obviously, anywhere that local solar would be installed would be accompanied with bi-direction meters, micro-inveters, and possibly even local storage.

As for grid vs. local, decisions would be made based on cost, land availability, the grid itself. This will take years and more innovation. You keep glossing over that point where I say this is not a today thing, but something that could happen over decades. Please explain how you k ow what technology will be available 1-2 decades from now?

I am just a web developer, and my point about the company I work at, is not that I am some electricitiy expert, but that I hear the challenges brought up frequently in conversation and company meetings. These are main issues being worked on as we speak, but it is a slow-moving process. And again, solar is only 3-4% of electricity, so all the other stuff that is needed, will be worked on as we scale.

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Angiellide t1_jcavmt8 wrote

I’m sorry you don’t fundamentally understand the grid.. bidirectional meters don’t help with management of the power, only payment. And they generally are associated with net metering which increases the price of electricity enormously for everyone without panels. It’s an extremely regressive policy.

Take a listen to The economics of rooftop solar if you want to understand more on this particular issue.

Otherwise I hope you have a great day. I’m stepping out of this discussion here.

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Poverty_Shoes t1_jc9j5kb wrote

Is there a way to make solar panel components renewable though? I’m under the impression that panels are currently built using finite metals.

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CoffeeParachute t1_jca4zy1 wrote

Recyclable is the word your looking for. It depends on the solar panel as there are many types now but it is something researchers have been working on.

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ShankThatSnitch t1_jcaheml wrote

Things can be recycled. The difference with solar to fossil fuels, is onelce the thing is made, it just works for many years before needing to recycle. Fossil fuels are vaporized the moment we need them. No getting those back.

Some types of solar arrays are just mirrors that red-light and boil liquid to spin turbines. And I am sure we will come up with many other types of panels as well.

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