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AllanfromWales1 t1_iwp9lkp wrote

I remain to be convinced that voluntary participation in a self-reporting survey is the best way to obtain data on the frequency of side effects of a recreational drug. Those for whom the effects were positive are more likely to volunteer for such a survey than those for whom they were not. They are also more likely to emphasise the positive effects if they have bought into the culture around Ayahuasca.

> “These results are consistent with previous studies, with regular users reporting that most adverse physical effects seem to not be serious and do not compromise health,” Perkins and colleagues explain.

Could this be because those who have serious adverse effects don't become regular users?

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Medit8or t1_iwpq3ce wrote

It’s selection bias right from the start.

There are also no controls for context - how it was prepared, dosage given, variation in ingredients, etc.

How can you compare data from first-timers with those taking it for the 100th time? Or compare those who took a relatively low dose with someone who took a much higher dose? Or those who had it last week vs those who last had it 5 years ago.

In other words, the research protocol is very shaky which makes the findings highly questionable.

On a side note, I know two people who seriously struggled with suicidal ideation afterwards.

On another note, calling ayahuasca “tea” is hilarious. The one time I had it, it was thick and nasty.

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OwnDemise t1_ix8lphb wrote

Dosage is somewhat secondary and the required amount often varies, depending on the ceremony. "Measuring" Ayahuasca is additionally complicated by the spiritual aspect - every brew needs intention to work properly. On a side note: traditionally, only the shaman drinks.

As for comparing the data: usually, ayahuasca comes with one or multiple purges of some kind. The only real differentiation that seems viable is before/after final purge. Either you are looking for guidance/healing or you are not - at this point, ayahuasca becomes interesting in a recreational setting.

Considering your side note: People feeling a major void or even drifting towards nihilism usually happens if they journey without a guide. This is one reason, why both pre- and postceremonial integration are critical. It can be difficult if not impossible to recover from an egodeath. Sometimes people want their bodies to follow their minds.

As for your last note: While there are some cultures that brew it thick like a vegetable soup, others actually prefer a thin and nasty tea. Although the nastiness fades once one has shed their burdens. it becomes rather tasty after that point.

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Medit8or t1_ixaiyej wrote

Thank you for your thoughtful response!

I’d appreciate your feedback on another question/idea.

In terms of plant medicines, I see a disconnect between the traditional shamans as lineage holders and those “shamans” who have taken the medicine out of the context and offer it to whoever shows up.

Something is lost in this process. The traditional shamans ability to “assess” the seeker/drinker is one of them. The other is (or at least it seems to me) tribal kinship and support for those who are challenged by longer term healing and integration.

Do you agree? Disagree?

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OwnDemise t1_ixcoit1 wrote

I agree with what you call disconnection. There are many who forfeit the traditional ways. Then again, it is a lot easier to just serve the medicine, than to actually do a ritual and to work on and with those who came looking for help. Then again, the ayahuasca-tourism is vital for many communities to stay connected with modern days society. There are tribes that have retreated back into the depths of the jungle, but for most this is not an option. Selling and serving ayahuasca is a great way to both teach a way of living, but also allowing interaction with our capitalistic culture.

There is nothing lost, but not everything is meant for the public. There was a time, when Shamans showed much more of our skills. But there was also a time when people hunted tribes down for their gold. There was also a time when we burned witches.
A shaman is typically an advisor - our connection with the other side helps to see and listen. In shamanic tradition, there is a big element of healing and guidance. But, first and foremost, a shaman is connected to an aspect of reality that is not meant to be described with words.

Then again, many call themselves Shaman, although they never finished their training.

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reckonthedead t1_iwpn5k4 wrote

Got to start somewhere. And, nearly 70% of participants reported negative side effects ...

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AllanfromWales1 t1_iwpq5fk wrote

Only the vomiting which is seen as part of the experience. Far fewer reported anything else.

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Tikaped t1_iwqdeh8 wrote

> Those for whom the effects were positive are more likely to volunteer for such a survey than those for whom they were not. They are also more likely to emphasise the positive effects if they have bought into the culture around Ayahuasca.

You seems pretty confident that is the case. Since this is /r/science I am sure you will provide links to prove you point.

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Sync1989 t1_iwp3nz5 wrote

Its so important we do more research on psychedelics, there is so much Potential

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censor-design t1_iwp7lft wrote

They corrupt the input / output carrier signal.

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atridir t1_iwp8j0z wrote

..and rewire the circuits to circumvent convoluted channels in favor of more direct connections via novel pathways.

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Rasputin0P t1_iwp8krs wrote

Any links with more info on that?

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popejubal t1_iwpq8j7 wrote

Care to define what “input / output carrier signal” is since that’s not any kind of valid term in neuroscience? Carrier signals is not how neurons or any part of the brain in general works.

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blacklegiondisciple t1_iwpcxae wrote

If you're concern is first about safety, I'd advise avoiding things that could be quite life changing. A common side effect of mind altering substance is finding you don't like the life you're living.

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DieWalze t1_iwpja31 wrote

I'd like to think that most people that have this experience were unhappy with their life in the first place. They just weren't honest with themselves before.

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Skatterbrayne t1_iwpn68a wrote

Anecdote: I'm largely happy with how my life is going and consider myself to be a good person. I have absolutely zero life-altering revelations on LSD, it just makes me jittery and happy.

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iDuddits_ t1_iwpvqjn wrote

yeah exactly. I like to think I'm an aware and introspective person when sober. So heavy doses of psychedelics haven't lead to bad trips
Worst thing is getting high and realizing you don't actually like a few friends haha

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dudeWithKeys t1_iwro7qn wrote

Yep, that's LSD for ya, but have you tried shrooms? Now that's something that always puts the pedal to the metal for me when it comes to personal revelations.

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AppropriateScience71 t1_iwtm7bb wrote

We’re you looking for life-altering revelations or to just enjoy the trip with friends?

I’m generally pretty content with life, but, while maybe not truly life altering, I’ve had a number of fairly profound revelations (which is quite difficult to explain to folks that haven’t had similar experiences). Not so much if done in a group, but I quite like leaving my group for 20 or so minutes to just let my mind wander then come back to recenter.

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gp2b5go59c t1_iwr4xkx wrote

> They just weren't honest with themselves before.

It should still be their responsibility to find this out, not a side effect of a drug.

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Airborne82D t1_iwq0u9w wrote

I can relate. The first time I did psilocybin I saw myself as I truly was. It shattered my ego that for so long had me convinced I was a great person. I was left afterward with having to pick up the pieces and try to put them back together.

Some people could very well discover things about themsleves they do not like. Some would argue that's a beneficial aspect but I could very easily see it causing one to descend in to madness.

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Sync1989 t1_iwps6cl wrote

Thats right, keep being a sheep

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MtBikesandBiceps t1_iwt7s77 wrote

In simple terms… Everyone’s upbringing, experiences, chemistry, genetics…. All come into play with how someone is going to react with any psychedelic. Not only that, but the environment that they’re in at the time of the experience. Do we know exactly how long the human species has been eating psychedelic mushrooms? When I did ayahuasca in the mountains of Colorado, brewed by myself, (easy btw) I came to a point where I thought I was dreaming. And in my dreams, I fly a LOT. Like I can fly to each of the ends of the earth, back again, then stop from 1000 MPH and hover a foot off the ground. This felt like I could do exactly that. But there was something in my chemistry that said, “no, you cannot fly in this realm. If you jump, you will die.” So I didn’t try. But not everyone may have that thought process. Chemistry.

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jonboy333 t1_iwqro9o wrote

Most dangerous thing about “ayahuasca” is the use of scopolamine in the brew. The kid that got buried out back of the ayahuasca retreat in South America overdosed on scopolamine. Do not travel to South America to participate in some shamanic ritual with a witch doctor that could be literally just some crazy bush man that knows his brew is strong and likes to knock out on scopolamine and dmt. That’s not a shaman. That’s a drug addict using what’s available To get high. Try dmt by vaping first. Then try crystal. Then get a hold of some maoi and do some research then if you feel confident go ahead and imbibe. Most ppl don’t get that far. Smoking raw crystal is more than enough for most psychonauts

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xjustbeingrealx t1_iwsavig wrote

What’s crystal?

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sunshine7bubbles t1_iwrlg20 wrote

I know a woman who become psychotic and literally never recovered after using it. Very sad.

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elfootman t1_iwt1lqm wrote

I know a woman who didn't. Now what?

Anecdotes are irrelevant.

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