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ChurchOfTheHolyGays t1_iwycl72 wrote

Reply to comment by PIPPIPPIPPIPPIP555 in Are you a determinist? Why/why not? How does that impact your view of the singularity? by Kaarssteun

Yes, the point is random is neither free-will nor deterministic, it is another thing. But at the same time randomness could be itself an argument for either determinism or free will depending on how you look at it.

Random to who? You can decide to go out on the street right now and do everything you know society doesn't want you to do and doesn't expect someone to do. You can do things you don't need to do, and you can even go out and do stuff you never even considered you would ever do in your life. Go take a shit on your own front door and throw it inside your house. Your randomness in their perspective is your exercise in free will.

Randomness in quantum mechanics in a way ***can potentially*** be used to pinpoint a "gap" in determinism. When you need to switch into probabilistic distributions instead of accurate predictions, that can be argued to be a physical manifestation of metaphysical gaps in determinism where *some other thing* takes the wheel.

Yes, there are multiple interpretations of quantum mechanics, stochastic is only one, but there are also deterministic interpretations of it. Important to know is there is no definitive answer yet and that "probabilistic" is most commonly not taken to be a synonym for deterministic just because you can "math it". Anyone that goes around saying there is a correct way to interpret quantum as either deterministic or stochastic is just making sweeping statements based on their own opinions.

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freeman_joe t1_iwyhnzu wrote

Even random is deterministic. If you know where is every particle precisely and also knowing their path energy etc in every part of universe you would have the power to calculate any outcome.

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Apollo24_ t1_iwyvya4 wrote

I advise you to do some research on quantum mechanics before commenting about this topic again.

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freeman_joe t1_iwyx1i8 wrote

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2101.01894.pdf

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Apollo24_ t1_iwyyvna wrote

I appreciate you trying to provide a source on this topic, but a non peer reviewed study with a total of 4 views which has a typo in the second sentence of its abstract doesn't prove anything. If it's deterministic or not changes depending on the interpretation of quantum mechanics you're working with, none of which have been reasonably backed by evidence to suggest it being the correct interpretation or not yet.

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freeman_joe t1_iwyz43q wrote

Quantum mechanics is still incomplete concept imho. It can predict outcomes but not all of them it is work in progress.

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freeman_joe t1_iwyxtfc wrote

I advise you to keep open mind on topic that isn’t solved. Quantum mechanics is gaining more knowledge and there is nothing set in stone in it. Top scientists are working on this topic everyday and make new discoveries.

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Apollo24_ t1_iwyzlz4 wrote

You're clearly in the wrong assumption that I'm defending a non deterministic universe when I'm not. I've only pointed you out not to write in absolutes which you clearly did, and now you're trying to educate me on being open minded and that this field is not set in stone yet? I believe you'll have to work on yourself first.

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ChurchOfTheHolyGays t1_iwz7nwz wrote

Google difference between random and chaotic.

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freeman_joe t1_iwzc0xa wrote

Random is without pattern. If you would know all inputs in universe word random would be meaningless because you would have the ability to calculate what would happen next.

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ChurchOfTheHolyGays t1_iwzdk1l wrote

Again. Same problem. You are fixated on the assumption that all randomness is chaotic.

Determining the outcome based on knowing the initial state ("all inputs") is the definition of chaotic.

Random means the outcome is not deterministic even when you have "all inputs". Also known as stochastic.

Chaotic = we lack information to predict.

Stochastic (random) = all information isn't enough to predict.

And you could hold the opinion that there is nothing really stochastic in the universe, that all randomness is really just chaotic and we just lack the ability to uncover it, which is ok, but again, there is no way you or anyone can prove that. To all ends and in all scientific fields, stochastic vs. chaotic is still taken as a very much real difference. If anyone could prove stochastic doesn't exist they would likely be the next world famous genius people would worship for centuries ahead.

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freeman_joe t1_iwzg4rk wrote

Thank you for putting in text what I am thinking.

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