I’m readySubmitted by CassidyHouse t3_10nsk59 in singularity
Steven81 t1_j6i1yei wrote
Reply to comment by Frumpagumpus in I’m ready by CassidyHouse
> and the cessation of conscioussness doesn't bug you.
It only matters in a platonic universe. If we do live in a materialistic world then it doesn't matter, because we are a thing which can switch on or off, but we are that thing regardless, if it switches off and then doesn't switch on, only then it is an issue. In fact materialism sidesteps a lot of the platonic/neoplatonic issues (immortality of soul and such ideas).
Only issue with creating copies of yourself (in a materialistic world), yet cease the function of the original is that you lose context, I.e. you do not see the world go on, instead you see it stop at the moment of the original's cessation. You can say that the world goes on in some higher level/sense but that's not at all what you're going to "see". You are going to see/experience the end of all. Which is -btw- why mass suicide has never caught on in most/any society, most people can make said connection in some subconcious level ("if I die, the world doesn't actually go on, at least not in any way that matters to me, at best it becomes a parallel universe to mine")...
Frumpagumpus t1_j6inapz wrote
idk seems more like a solipsistic point of view than a platonic one
(i actually consider myself a bit of a platonist, in particular i think the distinction between space of ideas/math our brains/gpt navigates and physical space we move through might be a bit more subtle than it seems on the surface, but i don't think that really makes any difference to present discussion (well, not in the way you seem to be arguing it, actually i think it could almost go in the opposite direction... abstract world might be a bit more material than first suspected))
Steven81 t1_j6io97d wrote
Platonism argues that we live in a world of ideas. That things like math or information are extant entities instead of shortcuts we use to describe more involved phenomenons.
Materialism believes that we live in a world of matter. That matter is primary and everything else are shorthand of how matter behaves through time.
Materialism does not believe even in the possibility of things like souls, essence... software.
It does matter whether we live in a materialistic or a platonic universe. In one case Uploading yourself is killing yourself, in another it is living forever without the need of pesky mediums.
It is a rather core question which will show up eventually.
And yeah Materialism can be quite sollipsistic (but not exclusively, for example it does not deny the existence of other experiences as valid, merely as not very relevant once said piece of matter ceases)...
Frumpagumpus t1_j6iung4 wrote
i think we disagree, I think your version of "platonism" is solipsistic lol, since it places so much emphasis on your point of view.
my version of platonism (which is not pure by any means but possibly just as aligned w/original platonism's theory of forms if not moreso than yours) is more: abstract and physical world can both be described with coordinate systems, e.g. numbers. So just like it turned out space and time were actually spacetime, there might be something similar going on.
and yes i don't believe in souls. (in particular there is no a priori reason to believe in them and even if it was a real concept it wouldnt' change much since the soul would also live in a reality similar to our own, e.g. that of space describable by a coordinate system, probably some timelike dimension as well in order to map to our own reality, in my estimation)
> In one case Uploading yourself is killing yourself, in another it is living forever without the need of pesky mediums.
uh, it can be killing yourself in both of them, because causal continuity is a "material" property...
the question is more of how much difference does it make, people die all the time, is it so bad to die, etc. You think maintaining your personal narrative is of paramount importance because it's tied to some trans dimensional soul or something. I see myself as more about fighting for my ideals, and making sacrifices when necessary or important.
Though i'm not sure it will really be much of a sacrifice actually, seems like that to us but we see things differently as exclusively embodied agents than future intelligences will.
Steven81 t1_j6j0968 wrote
> You think maintaining your personal narrative is of paramount importance
If we live in a materialistic universe , I don't think that concepts like "importance" can even enter the conversation.
Things either are or they are not in such a universe. In a materialistic universe your end is akin to the end of the world because there is a lack of observation in the particular timeline you always occupied. Yes the world will go on in some abstract way, but not in a manner that can -even in principle- matter to you. Say the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics ends up being true (basically time is multidimensional), in such a world how can it matter what happens in a parallel reality that is not ours. One's death in a materialistic universe is neither important nor unimportant, it does have a definite effect on the individual though (he gets stuck in a dead end version of the universe).
That's why I find a materialistic universe (if we indeed live in one) a partially solipsistic one.
I dont know how Platonism can be sollipsistic though. Plato certainly did believe that we live in a universe made of ideals and that we embody an image of them. The concept of a soul was paramount to his belief and especially to that of neo platonists. That's where Christians got it from (early Christians believed in bodily resurrection, there was no concept of an immortal soul, until neo platonists had their influence on Christianity around the 4th century ce, but I digress)...
Frumpagumpus t1_j6j0vr4 wrote
> If we live in a materialistic universe , I don't think that concepts like "importance" can even enter the conversation.
what, why does a soul or whatever have anything to do with importance? (my suspicion here would be you are trying to do something impossible to do with an axiomatic system)
> Yes the world will go on in some abstract way, but not in a manner that can -even in principle- matter to you
we just went over how "abstract" and "material" (the world) aren't necessarily so different... they are both spaces in a geometric sense mapped by coordinate systems
Steven81 t1_j6jvvdd wrote
> why does a soul or whatever have anything to do with importance?
It doesn't, I was reacting to something else entirely (namely a phrase of yours that I quoted).
> we just went over how "abstract" and "material" (the world) aren't necessarily so different...
A description of a thing (an "abstraction") is not the same as the thing in a materialistic universe. I can see how they can be neighbours in a platonic or more generally an idealistic universe.
Which is why it is crucial for us to know in what type of universe we find ourselves into.
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