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staresatmaps t1_jchr2l7 wrote

Reply to comment by Cognac_and_swishers in Victory! Minor League Baseball Players Are Finally Unionized. by theworkeragency

The best thing for player salaries would be more loss of affiliation. It's all stockholm syndrome. Imagine if there was actually competition for players and not just 1 entity. Minor league basketball players get payed more because they can play in Europe so the NBA has to pay them to keep them. Maybe more Americans need to go to Japan and Korea.

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Cognac_and_swishers t1_jchtqv5 wrote

Lots of American players do go to Korea and Japan, but only after it's clear they aren't going to have a major league career in the US.

I don't see how "loss of affiliation" would lead to higher salaries. There are already lots of unaffiliated minor leagues, and they are basically for the guys who aren't good enough to play in the affiliated minors. No player who has the talent to make the majors is going to voluntarily play for an independent league team.

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staresatmaps t1_jchvs2h wrote

If it works like that in Basketball and Soccer, I don't see how Baseball as a sport is any different. Even if you did have a potential to play in the majors, would you rather make 20k a year in milb or 120k a year in Korea while you develop? The main problem is more that NPB and KBO have a limit on the number of foreign players they can sign. Now imagine an independent league that had teams in a bunch of large cities, not small towns throughout America. MLB would do everything to stop that from happening.

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moskowizzle t1_jchy0cf wrote

There are independent teams just a few miles outside of NYC. The veteran (i.e. highest paid) players make a few thousand a month and that's only in-season. I last worked for one of them back in 2009 and the veteran cap was $3000/month. I'm assuming it's gone up at least a bit since then, but it's not like they're making bank. Rookies made $800/month.

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staresatmaps t1_jci0n1b wrote

Because why would they pay more? They probably have zero fans that actually care if they win. Those leagues embrace the mickey mouse family event atmosphere. Look at the USL Championship in soccer. They pay more because they actually want to win and embrace fans that care. Those baseball teams are usually in little tiny towns with no people too.

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moskowizzle t1_jci332t wrote

I'm saying that these are teams in major metropolitan areas.

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staresatmaps t1_jci3hhn wrote

Give me an example?

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moskowizzle t1_jci3mtb wrote

New Jersey Jackals and Rockland Boulders. A little further out you have the Sussex County Miners.

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staresatmaps t1_jci4pqb wrote

They both play in a league with a tiny salary cap and wierd player rules trying to be farm teams in everything but name. I wonder how many fans they have? I bet they would get a lot more if they took themselves seriously.

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moskowizzle t1_jci4wie wrote

Jackals draw about 2000/game, but they're moving to a stadium that's about 2x the size of Yogi Berra Stadium.

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SmarterThanMyBoss t1_jci4cam wrote

Lookup the Frontier League. It's the only league I'm familiar with (I worked for a team that used to be in the league - but the team was in a small town and the league outgrew it). They have teams in the Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Chicago areas. Those are the only 3 teams I can think of off the top of my head. I'd guess the other teams are all near major markets or the main attractions in tertiary markets.

Independent baseball (and high-level college, wooden bat leagues) is awesome and well-supported by their local communities.

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staresatmaps t1_jci5g3v wrote

Do you think it could be bigger if they started paying players more and getting better players or fans just don't give a shit about that?

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SmarterThanMyBoss t1_jci7xww wrote

No. It's great for what it is but it will never compete to get "the best" players and honestly, except for the big time prospects (that are only hyped because the MLB fans are excited about the future), no one cares if you're a "2nd division" player or a "5th division" level player. They're all GREAT baseball players and it's fun to watch them play up close and personal. Independent ball has a niche where fans can get up close and personal. Stadiums are small (but often very nice and they host lots of tournaments for high schools and colleges) and attendance is low and you have access to players and coaches like you don't get at other levels.

I've seen or worked at all levels of baseball and there is something special about every level. The majors are a huge spectacle. The best players in the world trying to win the championship of the entire world. But they're also distant. You can't see them. You can't touch them. Many of them dislike you (check out comments many made about how great it was playing without fans or media during the covid year).

AA and AAA (and to a lesser extent A) are young guys trying to take that last step to a lifetime dream. Or veterans who are 1 injury away from getting back. The promos are more fun. The stadiums are smaller. The atmosphere is chill because no one knows who won the AAA championship last year except people who were in the stadium.

College Wooden bat, and Independent leagues are hit or miss but the good ones are great. The shitty ones are guys playing on community college fields with 43 fans but the good ones can get 2-8k fans. The promos and fan engagement is awesome. You can usually walk right up to the fence and get autographs. Players often don't have a tunnel, so they walk through the stands and get high fives from the kids. I worked for a team like this (medical) and just sat on the edge of the dugout. I'd get kids all the time that wanted so and sons autograph (or even mine which was weird since I'm just a fat guy with a team tee shirt) and I'd get it for them between innings. Some of our players went on the the majors. Most didn't. All of them were very very good college players and it was high level, fun baseball.

For what it's worth, I've been told by "baseball people" and from what I've seen have no reason to disagree, that in terms of quality of play, good Independent league ball is equivalent to being slightly below AA but definitely better than A. (Again, it varies greatly. I'm sure there are shitty leagues that are really bad. The Sugar Land Skeeters had Roger Clemons just a couple years after he last pitched in the majors and Tracy McGrady -very good baseball player- shortly after his NBA career).

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staresatmaps t1_jcj4ucb wrote

To be honest, this way of thinking is just so foreign to how I think. Maybe because I'm mainly a soccer fan. But soccer fans do not support minor league teams. Nobody will show up unless its an independent team. Even the biggest teams in the world, maybe a few dozen people are showing up for the reserve teams. I get the "entertainment" thing, but why would any serious fan care at all about a reserve team or a faux reserve team.

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SocialWinker t1_jciv2ht wrote

The St Paul Saints were an independent minor league team for most of their existence, until COVID came along. Honestly, the baseball was usually pretty lousy overall, but the games were always a ton of fun. Now they’re the AAA affiliate for the Twins, and the atmosphere has stayed pretty similar, with better baseball being played as well, for the most part. Granted, the were just sold to a new ownership group, so who knows what we see in the future.

Edit - Just to add, the pay for the independent teams was comically bad, even compared to minor league salaries, IIRC. I tried out once when I was younger and in much better shape. I did not make the team, they still had some standards, even back then.

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staresatmaps t1_jcj9nxd wrote

Thats what im saying. Nobody wants to support a farm team or a glorified farm team. They dont get people going to the games to watch baseball, they get people by being a "fun" family friendly day out, not disimilar to going to the zoo. If the Saints were an independent team in a league that the teams payed decent and cared about winning it would probably be sold out every game for the same prices.

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SocialWinker t1_jcjef6r wrote

For what it’s worth, saints game are usually pretty packed, for minor league games. Not exactly sell outs, but they averaged something like 6,000+ per game, in a 7,000 or so seat stadium. The Saints also have the advantage of being in just across the river from their MLB affiliate. So Twins fans can go see their top prospects easily.

When the Saints were an independent team in an independent league, their attendance was falling, but still not bad, at under 5,000 a game. But that was at an ancient stadium. They moved right around the time they become an affiliate. Hard to really say if the attendance increase is due to the gorgeous new ballpark, the affiliate stuff, or both. Probably both.

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Cognac_and_swishers t1_jchxbbi wrote

I'm not sure I understand what kind of system you're proposing. Amateur players get drafted by MLB teams, and then are under that team's control for a certain number of years. They play in the minors first because in baseball, more than any other sport, it takes time to develop skills. Newly drafted players aren't ready to play in the majors immediately.

The draft, and the years of team control, are important for parity. MLB has more parity than any of the other North American sports leagues, and MUCH more parity than the European soccer leagues. I think that's a good thing.

You seem to be proposing a system where there's no draft and every amateur player just becomes a free agent. So, for example, a guy who would be a top draft pick can instead sign a 1-year contract with a Korean team, and then try to sign on with a major league team the next year? Correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

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staresatmaps t1_jchzvgh wrote

Yes, thats exactly what what I'm saying. Now imagine the Japanese league, Korean league, Mexican league, an imaginary Canadian league and another American league all vying for those players. Now MLB would have to pay minor league players more to get them to sign. Also the MLS has great parity and their draft is meaningless. Its all to do with the salary cap, not the draft.

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pattydo t1_jchvosy wrote

> Maybe more Americans need to go to Japan and Korea.

Maybe! But the ones good enough to get a lot of money there are good enough to have a likely MLB career and a huge signing bonus that they'd be throwing away.

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staresatmaps t1_jchwijj wrote

I just looked up the Japanese and Korean teams have a limit on the number of foreign players they can sign. I'm sure plenty of Milb players would happily go there for 100k-200k salaries, but those teams wont waste their limited spots on lower level players.

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[deleted] t1_jcjzjow wrote

[deleted]

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staresatmaps t1_jcl0oga wrote

They have a limit on foreign players and there is only so many teams. Yea im sure it stops many people, but that has never stopped basketball players from going to Europe. They have the same foreign player rules, but there's just way more teams and money.

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