Submitted by TurboBennett t3_zv3ufb in todayilearned
Basically Christmas....
It's why the Pilgrims tried to ban it in America, it wasn't a real Christian holiday, just a rebranded holiday from European pagans they didn't want to stop doing.
It’s beginning to look a lot like Saturnalia
The war on Christmas goes waaaay back, lol.
What holidays are actually in the Christian writings, and not stolen from others to smother the non-Christian earlier celebrations?
The parallels between Saturnalia and Christmas are not as pronounced as you might think:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/did-christians-really-steal-christmas-from-the-pagans
The aqueduct?
♪are you not entertained?♪
Not a one :-)
Splitter !
and it's pure satanic
And perhaps a tad bit of group sex.
AFAIK this holiday was celebrated around the entire Roman Empire (including Britain) but there may have been pre-Roman empire European days of celebration around that time of year which is very close to winter Solstice.
This is ancient Rome so you can't forget thr orgies
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff podcast did a good couple episodes about the history of Christmas and its links to Saturnalia and other pagan holidays, which is very interesting.
All religions have similarities, partly what makes them all stupid asf and hypocritical especially when they call eachother out
It's a Saturnalia Miracle!
Everyone knows Christmas is a ripoff of Festivus
Serenity now!
Yeah. All right. I’ll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done
and it is led by christians nonetheless!
how ironic
And it was fought by Christians attacking Christmas. Never forget.
We should bring it back. Next year will be the return of Saturnalia. Merry Saturnalia to all.
No need to thank me!
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Nothing can match the pure burning hatred that Christians have for slightly different Christians.
Just like Christmas then?
Interesting, I am only familiar with ones I grew up.
This is a cynical interpretation of how Christmas originated. Like it designed by a committee that pre-planned everything with malicious intent. More likelihood, there were just some practices that hold that were holdovers from a pre Christian past but now being used to honor the Christian God. Christmas traditions vary region to region. It was something just happened from the ground up and organically.
Constructed the foundational language for almost all the romance languages, established trade routes that connected Africa, Europe, and parts of Asia, and I suppose you could argue the ability for western society to come to fruition with the holy Roman empire's influence on Europe.
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
The Council of Nicea determined the Acts of John to be apocryphal. However, in these stories was a tale of John calling upon God, and successfully causing the destruction of a temple to Artemis. This, along with the well known stories of St. Patrick expelling “snakes” from Ireland; as well as religious fundamentalists compunction for violence, lends credence to the idea of deliberate erasure or appropriation of cultural traditions.
The YouTube channel Religion for Breakfast has a good rundown of this too.
My close friends in HS were a mixed bag of Jewish/Christian/Atheist so we all got together to celebrate Saturnalia every Solstice. Gifts, games, sparkling cider, so much laughing we were sore the day after. Good times.
🎶Sweet home Alabama 🎶
I'VE GOTTA LOTTA PROBLEMS WITH YOU PEOPLE!
Maybe Ascention, but IDK anyone who actually celebrates that (like, what do you even do for it?). It is a national holiday in Sweden though, so we don't have work/school on it (which I obviously won't complain abouy), but other than that it is pretty much a regular day.
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Was that a quote from the movie or were you just saying? Cause that’s well said
Three Kings Day/Epiphany? Though that was probably just a rip off of something much cooler the Greeks were doing
It wasn’t a fixed period. Saturnalia was the inter-calendar period, and the priests were supposed to measure the solstice and work out when to start the next year so the farming seasons lined up properly.
Because of a general failure to do this properly, for a number of reasons, Julius Caesar reformed it with a 365-day year and leap year every four.
Yeah, because christians just integrated everyone's established holidays to make conversions easier.
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Io, Saturnalia!
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Brought peace?
No I wrote it. I taught Latin for a short period so I had a few things on my mind. Honestly I wrote it on the toilet avoiding family at Christmas.
They would also bring fir trees inside and decorate them for Saturnalia
So would you say the provinces provided a sort of template for the nation states of early Europe?
I think it would be silly to only pick on Christianity here. Humans have surely been celebrating the same times of the year since before we have record of these celebrations.
Basically every traditional holiday is a remnant of a celebration of an equinox or solstice. Christianity surely stole Christmas from pre-Christian religions, but those religions also likely stole their holidays from religions that pre-date them.
Yes, quite true.
I do believe those who were in touch with nature cycles used celebrations and stories to teach children to recognize patterns and signs of upcoming harsh or flourishing seasons.
Oh man I took Latin in high school. At one Christmas I told my grandma that Christmas was just created to compete with Saturnalia and wow...the look on her face.
Couldn't say. Most nation states were monarchies at the time if I'm not mistaken, who were justified as sovereign leaders under the idea that they were chosen by God (hence backed by the Roman catholic church). So I'm sure that there are influences in some sense.
Christmas was not created to "smother" Saturnalia, when Rome became Christian they didnt celebrate the holiday because it was closely associated with Romans gods. It was important to their culture though, so it adopted Christian themes and carried on the traditions that actually mattered to the people, like feasting and gift giving.
I give Saturnalia greeting cards to everyone for Christmas. That way I don’t have to worry about getting anyone’s holiday wrong, because I get them wrong for everybody.
Though there’s no reference to observances, Easter is a pretty obvious progression from scripture since the Last Supper was a Passover dinner (not a modern Seder, that tradition developed later) and is placed in the year accordingly. This is why its placement in the Gregorian Calendar shifts from year to year, because it is dated from the lunar Hebrew Calendar used by the figures in the story rather than the solar Julian calendar used by the Romans.
Any holiday that always takes place on the same day on a solar calendar is self-evidently not laid out in scripture as a holiday.
…I lost my train of thought
That explains that whole mass of christmas porn in those seasons
I now this word from when Robert California says it, I believe the line is a "One last Saturnalia?"
EDIT: oops, it was a "one man Saturnalia" where he got into some "Cuban whites"
The Romans were successful conquerors because they did not try to completely destroy the cultures of the conquered nations, instead, helping them to adapt and contribute rather than totally be subjugated.
Found a podcast on Puritans outlawing it in England/Wales/Scotland in the 1600s. Was outlawed in Scotland over 60 years, which is partially why new years remains a bigger holiday up north.
Oh, peace - shut up!
I mean, the Romans (Constantine) did deal with the uptick in Christian’s by basically absorbing it. And everywhere it spread in Europe the same thing happened with the indigenous population hence all the correlations with pagan rituals.
Don’t forget oden and his 8 legged horse … do the google
That's how the Romans had been dealing with every religion they encountered for hundreds of years. "Oh your god? No, that's just one of our gods, with a different hat on."
Now I wonder why we Christians appropriated is instead of, you know, going for the big guns and appropriating whatever Jupiter's festival was.
#AND YOU'RE ALL GONNA HEAR ABOUT THEM!
Hey, us Jews have a ton of original holidays! They're mostly about times we died or almost died, but at least they're ours.
You joke, but the war on Christmas goes back a long time
Isn't that the same horse Loki slept with? Or was that the horse Loki gave birth to after sleeping with a different horse?
I'm pretty sure the 365 calander came far later than Caesar. Caesar renamed the fifth and sixth months after himself and Augustus, but they still had a 10 month calander with roughly 60 days a year going unaccounted for.
E: Nevermind, I'm talking shit it was Caesar
Oh no nevermind you were right lol
Just like uncle dad used to do
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lots of people never stopped worshipping Saturn
>I think it would be silly to only pick on Christianity
this is Reddit lol it's the easiest way to farm karma
Christianity is 100% plagiarized.
They celebrated by crucifying dogs and parading them around. Fun for the whole family.
Wait what?
It’s not necessarily the same with Christianity as other pagan religions that existed during the Roman Empire, since the religion is purely monotheistic, it wasn’t able to be incorporated into roman religion like cultures or religions that came before.
Constantine didn’t deal with the uptick of Christianity by absorbing it, he himself converted and was arguably responsible for allowing it to grow and later becoming the dominant religion
Lupercalia, a fertility holiday, occurred February 15. There are some parallels to St. Valentine's day.
One of the bacchanalian drinking holidays was March 17th, which is Paddy's day.
“Smother” isn’t really the right word IMO.
SOME times Christian customs were patterned in a way to make converting and assimilating non-Christians easier.
BUT
Other times it was basically the reverse.
Christians were not always the social majority after all.
So depending on the time frame, you’d have Christians assimilate to the society they were in, making their celebration fit within the larger social groups customs, so that they could fit in, or stay off the radar, or whatever else made it easier to practice their faith without drawing negative attention
OP did you get curious like me after that reference in Big Bang Theory?
The streets were said to flow with vomit and human waste soooo. Saturnalia was gnarly
Like the 4 harvest festivals?
Like Chanukah, Purim, Tisha B'Av....
EDIT: Not sure what I'm saying that's objectionable, but people seem to dislike it....
Don't forget that it was also like the purge where crime was legal for the week and the sacrifice was made to atone for the sins. The girl who was sacrificed would be treated like royalty for the week leading up to the sacrifice
Fun fact; Christians introduced the celebration of Christmas Eve on 24th, a day after saturnalia, because they were so relieved that all the partying and having fun ended and they could finally indulge in their ceremonial misery and self pity again.
What else are you supposed to do with the family on Christmas?
Augustus wasn't called Augustus until after Julius Caesar was dead.
The Roman calendar had twelve months for the entire Republican period. According to legend, Romulus invented a 10-month one that was used for a bit, but he may have never existed in the first place. It was probably an early Roman King who replaced it.
Do you have a source of some further readings?
SeaBearPA t1_j1mxhuk wrote
what did the romans ever do for us