Submitted by splishysplash123 t3_122v1rt in vermont
Just learned about them (Virginia resident), and at first my reaction was like "ah, that's quaint but fun - lovely to see a little direct democracy and community-based governance". I think I had too rosy an outlook though, to begin with learning that it's held on a working day seems nuts. Does it work for where you live? If not, could it be modified to be beneficial or is it just outmoded?
Sounds like my town!
Hi, neighbor. :)
In like a “this is a utopia, we can self-govern and get along and enjoy ourselves” sorta way or “maybe not productive anymore but at least it’s fun!” or “total joke, a waste”?
In a we-are-involved-in-democracy-not-apathy-and-the-community-is-bonding-in-a-healthy-mutual-support kinda way.
A strong sense of community is correlated with longer life spans and Vermont, generally, prioritizes healthy life styles.
But we’re also aware it’s not utopia.
Yeah when I moved to Vermont it sounded like town meeting day was cult initiation day. It ended up being a lot more normal and even somewhat enjoyable.
You see people you know, you talk to people, you vote on things, you can see the other people who are voting.
It's also not very polarizing, unlike my previous place of living, not a single person got up on stage and told anyone they were going to hell for wearing a mask.
I think it’s the best system possible for our rural communities, and that those who take issue with the system and traditions have expectations and priorities that are in some ways incompatible with living in a rural area where every aspect of local government and services rely almost entirely on volunteer labor and continual community engagement.
If you can’t make it for a few hours once a year to debate/discuss issues, and don’t want to look your neighbor in the eye while you cast a vote that could be for example financially devastating to their interests or raise taxes to the point they can’t afford the land that’s been in their family for 6 generations, then you probably also aren’t volunteering on the local fire department, mowing the athletic fields or serving on any local boards to actually implement the issues you’re voting on.
Many of the people demanding a switch to ballots just want to swoop in, vote based on a superficial understanding of town business while applying a heavy lens of the national (un)civil discourse and pop culture and swoop out not unlike how our national political system works. That’s simply not workable for small town life. Those people lack even a basic understanding of local history or dynamics and additionally usually have no respect and often times hold significant contempt for the people who actually dedicate significant chunks of their lives into the town on a volunteer basis.
Go to town meeting. Be engaged enough to know what you’re even voting on. Join your local volunteer fire department or rescue squad and raise your kids in a way that they learn the necessary values and life skills to do the same. Volunteer to mow the cemetery and athletic fields. Push back vigorously against those who try to inject the national discourse into our small town way of life.
Love your take
I’ve been the outsider you talk about but was fully informed on issues, served on a committee, went to board meetings, etc and still had a mass of local townies want to yell in my face and intimidate me for having a difference of opinion. Funny you mention looking your neighbor in the eye as one casts a vote… One of the proposals that was voted on was an issue that was never brought to the residents on the roads it impacted the most in the new proposal, yet so many, not unlike your comment cried how they were community minded people yet completely failing to see the irony of their efforts.
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You’re right, they should be attending selectboard meetings whenever possible too. Ideally volunteering for positions in town, and serving on the fire department or rescue squad as well.
Then they would actually know what’s going on and actually be able to weigh in appropriately as someone with skin in the game.
They’d also likely be busy enough in their world as it exists locally to not be wholly consumed mentally by the problems of the world outside their town.
I live in a town of 600 people, it's a good chance to talk with people you don't often see, have a say in town business, and be directly involved in the democracy that affects you most, local policy's. It's an interesting/quaint Vermont tradition, gives you a chance to vote on representatives, gives floor time for you to ask questions to them and bring up matters that concern you for discussion with elected and other residents.
Generally state workers (DOT, teachers, etc) are given the day off. Most working in the private sector do not get the day off.
I have never had the day off as a teacher.
My kids never had class on town meeting day. We use the school for town meeting so I assume teachers have the day off. It’s usually part of a winter break with school out for a week.
Also, it’s a state holiday.
I have always taught on town meeting day. The large district I work for does not extend the winter break to include it.
That assumes all teachers live in your town. But that would be nice
It was simply a comment about my situation. You assume every teacher that works in my school district (which comprises Bolton, Huntington, Richmond, Jericho, and Underhill) lives in one of the towns in the district. My guess is many do not.
Then you're not a teacher in Vermont. School is not in session on town meeting day.
Are you thinking of November elections?
Burlington shows it this year as a Professional Development day so it looks like teachers are expected to attend. That seems like a problem for the district.
All schools in my county are open in town meeting day. I've never in my life had that day off from work.
No. I teach in VT. My (large) district has school in session in town meeting day. Not all teachers have it off.
There are a quite a few school districts where teachers are working on Town Meeting Day. I know of when that has classes that day specifically so when voters go to town meeting they don't think teachers are slackers always getting days off.
same issue as election day being held on a workday. Should be moved to a weekend or made into a holiday
Our town has a town meeting, but also Australian ballot. Town meeting is in the evening. I do wish they'd move out to the weekend, just like I wish they'd move election day.
Where I am it's ballots here that you can pick up the same as any other election.
I feel for the people in more rural towns where you can't cast your vote for an issue unless you are there in the building. Since 2020 it's been a huge accessibility issue for those that are immune compromised and it's also always been an issue for those that are disabled because getting to the place the meeting is being held isn't always possible.
Plus the whole work day thing. It ends up largely being stay at home parents (that can afford childcare) and elderly folks...which is fine? But it's not representative of the community as a whole.
One of my assignments in late elementary school was to attend a town meeting day in the rural town I grew up in and see how it worked and even then I remember thinking it would be a problem for so many. And that was like 25 yrs ago.
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https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/21/005/00472b
In theory, the law protects the right of all non-essential employees to attend Town Meeting, as long as they provide 7 days notice.
In practice...well, honestly I'm not even sure many people are aware of this law. Willing to bet that lots of businesses would just declare all their scheduled employees to be "essential," but I also don't get the impression that there's an awareness of the ostensible legal protection here.
Of course, being a weekday isn't ideal for participation, but it is a state holiday, so schools and state offices are closed, which helps a bit.
It only helps if you work for the state or the reason you can’t attend is school related. For the other large percent of people, taking a random Tuesday off work is not an option. Town meeting under represents economically disadvantaged populations and only allows you a voice if you are privileged enough to miss a day of work.
Agreed, although its also worth pointing out that if it were on a weekend, then people who work weekends (retail, food service, etc), who also tend to be economically disadvantaged, still wouldn't be able to attend. I worked weekends for many years. My partner currently works evenings in a grocery store and wouldn't be able to go if it were held on Tuesday evening.
Exactly. Town meeting was designed around a time when the majority of the state was engaged in agriculture. Not a ton doing in the world of farming in the first week of March.
The most truly democratic thing is ballot with universal mail in voting.
Came to express this sentiment. We are a state that produces most of its income from tourism and service industries; most of us work on the weekends!
Town Meeting is great in towns that give it the cultural place of honor it deserves…but it can also be “meh” in towns that treat it like just another thing that has to be done. My town unfortunately feels like the latter, and you can tell that the zeal residents used to have for town meeting (and all that it stands for) is waning…which really worries me. One town over, they begin the meeting with a coffee/tea/pastries social hour and wrap it up with a big potluck. The difference in how excited and invested people are is palpable.
I deeply worry that if Town Meeting (as a concept) isn’t given an injection of pride, energy, and excitement, that we may be in danger of losing a quintessential way of life here in Vermont. The fact that not everyone gets the day off is damn near criminal (it should be enforced in both the public and private sector, IMHO). Towns should make it something that everyone - especially newbies and young folks - look forward to coming to.
If a tradition isn’t celebrated & upheld as something essential and something to look forward to, it eventually starts to feel like it’s just peer pressure from dead people. If that happens to Town Meeting in Vermont, our state is in danger of becoming like every other place where folks choose passive convenience over critical thinking and community care.
Our town has gone full Australian ballot and the polls are open 7 to 7.
This is much better then the extremely regressive previous iteration done during normal business hours.
It started as a valid form of local government but I no longer believe it is one.
Hey over there upside-down New Hampshirites! I love town meeting day here over the river, it gives us a chance to see our neighbors and vote yes or no on town spending packages. We can all be a part of democracy and work on local issues and other things we have more control over. We can also get up and make a town-wide spectacle out of ourselves at the microphone as some often do!
Towns want people to go so they try moving them around. My town has Town Meeting on Monday night. Then has voting by Australian ballot on Tuesday.
It's fun but outdated. Mine was scheduled for the day of a snowstorm this year. It was still storming and as such the majority of the (mostly dirt) roads hadn't been cleared by the time it started. Only about 50 people were able to get there, and it was completely not representative of the town.
Our Town Meeting is on the Saturday before t/m day, with the Australian Ballots (voting) on Tuesday. 7am-7pm
Public employees see it as Super Bowl, 6-12 months of work and you get that one chance to present the issue and the solution. This is unlike a city council who might meet twice weekeny. I
Grew up in a town with a strong town meeting tradition (to this day) and unfortunately moved out. There really is nothing like it.
Always thought the state should push to shut all business that day so everyone could attend, but wasn't meant to be. Seems like they've promoted it less and less.
There is no substitute for face to face, neighbor to neighbor communication about local issues. Doesn't matter if you're 5 gen woodchuck or moved from the flatlands last year. It's a great way to get involved with your community
Hate to see it slowly disappear
No. Not everyone gets the day off from work and it’s a once a year thing so if you miss it. The fuck you.
Then fight your employer or the state to make it a recognized holiday. Don't take away a positive because your employer sucks.
I also work at a resort soooo yeah
That blows, thank you for your service. I'm thankful I work for a Vermont focused place that gives us it off
My employer goes, takes the day off, we employees don't get the day off to go.
Lots of people still work on recognized holidays. The only way to ensure equal access to voting is to do everything by Australian ballot with polls open for twelve hours, just like election day. I understand the appeal of town meeting but personally would be thrilled to see the end of voting from the floor.
My husband sent this to me asking if I was the poster (first town meeting day and just moved here from Virginia also!).
Our town has about 3200 residents. Only 62 showed up for the public portion. They’ve been trying to get everything on the ballot for years but the people who attend are older and like the tradition. Plus, the meeting is at 9am. I work during the day so couldn’t get to the polls until after hours like most. While I think having a town meeting day is a fun part of the rural community you still have to adapt and that’s where a lot of communities fall short.
We have town meeting at night where I live.
I love having a town meeting day but it needs to be updated. Have it on a weekend. Zoom it so more people can participate.
Guarantee OP will not listen to that because our podcasts are also probably quaint and outmoded for them. Eye roll.
Most certainly!
It's still corrupt AF
Pretty much all the corruption in the state is at the town level.
That’s a really odd take. If I had to point at the most egregious and consistently active corruption I’d say it’s the relationship between a few dozen NGOs that elevate members of our legislature into office and then write the bills that those legislators then push into law. Second to that, the local media outlets who play softball with said NGO sponsored legislation to help keep it out of public scrutiny by not drawing attention to any of the details knowing full well there’d be a mass public revolt if people knew what was being discussed and implemented behind closed doors.
Town business is generally out in the open for anyone who cares enough to find out. In comparison, none of us get to hear the discussions at these NGOs while they draft policy in private for their sponsored legislators to push into law. We only get to hear the PR campaign version with all of the underlying goals and long term intentions watered down for public consumption.
There are good things and bad things. If your town doesn't vote via Australian ballot the next day and something important is being voted on at town meeting, a minority of the town can make a really big decision. Most towns are now just using town meeting as a place to discuss issues etc. now. Then again you have the crazies or the people who just want to complain. They can take up tons of time and unless you have a really good moderator, they can get out of hand. In my opinion, I think its a value tradition but holding the vote the next day gives everyone a chance to make their voice heard. It's also a great time to meet your neighbors! In this day and age that isn't always the way things are anymore.
No.
YES
As plenty have said its becoming outdated, especially in towns with more than a few hundred people.
Those who are offended by it being called quaint are the folks who keep Vermont stuck in the 1980s, fighting any change that comes their way.
I get a paid day off from work, so they are awesome!
It’s like the public meetings from Parks and Recreation, but pettier.
Unpopular opinion, I honestly think a lot of the solutions and ideas shared in these meetings that are just not good ideas and come from bad intentions. People complain about spending and rather than focus on larger solutions and resort to regressive, tax cutting measures as a first course of action because most of the rural communities are struggling and people who have the time to attend are mostly retired. You also find the handful townie business folks that act in a similar fashion, if it benefits them they’re interested, otherwise the same regressive shoot down ideas attitude. Civics overwhelming have been lost, where people actually care about the well being of the community at large and engage with this top of mind rather than looking out for number one. But I guess, bad discussion is better than none at all.
You're right we should ignore government that directly changes our lives and consider it quaint. Thanks for the help bud.
Man I was just asking because I was curious
Unique-Public-8594 t1_jdrwm3t wrote
Our town’s town meeting started with a sing-a-long and ended with a pot luck.