thisoneisnotasbad t1_j43qk5s wrote
Reply to comment by MultiGeometry in Cyberattack takes down land-records management system used by many Vermont towns by sickter6
They also allow deed pulls for free, online, which is what this company does and charges money for.
The parcel mapping program directly mirrors the parcels maps in the town clerk offices.
If you are somehow implying this private company has better records than the town clerk you are sorely mistaken. Not only mistaken but the map at the town clerk is the source of truth so any discrepancies would need to go through a legal proceeding and be recorded by the town (which then would offer them for free) before they became actual property lines.
MultiGeometry t1_j44r2ay wrote
Depends on where you live and whether there’s a modern survey. My deed is described as ‘approximately 2 acres where Mr and Mrs Smith have their primary residence along River Rd.’ The polygons on file with the town, and thus, the state, are approximations. My deed implies 130’ of road frontage, but the town records imply 230’. Somewhere between that difference lies half of my barn. With my neighbors, we have gentlemen’s agreements on where property lines probably are. And because everyone is nice, no one has a problem.
I’ve researched the deed back to the 1930s. If I hired a surveyor they would likely need to research the deed to its inception (early 1800s or whatever records still exist), along with all the surrounding plots and various subdivisions before establishing boundaries. Even then, it might require legal agreements with the neighbors to address any ambiguities.
So yes, if the town records suddenly become inaccessible there’s no way for me to legally hire someone to establish my boundaries. If I were to try to sell my home and the buyer gets spooked by the lack of a survey, I’ll be out of luck. If I get a ride litigious neighbor, that’s not something that could be easily resolved.
Vermont is an old state with unique challenges. Losing access to land records is a pretty big deal in some parts where 20th century modernization was overlooked.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j45ryrb wrote
I domt understand your point. This company being offline did not impact access to any land record. The only thing it did was resell public records. Your survey example didn’t make sense to me either. If without a modern survey, the only way to resolve it is to do deed research, this is free from the town.
It seems many people don’t understand this either. This company got access to 1/6 of the towns in VT and is charging people for access to the record they can get for free direct from the town.
- 1/5.5 to be closer, not 1/6
MultiGeometry t1_j47mpn6 wrote
Except my town directs people to this website instead of bogging down the town clerk with records requests. Just because the website is down doesn’t mean the clerks office magically has new staff. Also, the article mentions that because this company is supposed to be handling records requests, they haven’t indexed the physical records as well as they have had to in the past.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j48akq3 wrote
Nobody except entitled people expect the town clerk to do their record search for them. Who TF thinks it is the town clerks job?
MultiGeometry t1_j49n5xt wrote
Im giving up. You seem to have a view of how the world works that lines up with how you wish it worked. I simply can’t convince you that people experience hardships that you were unaware of.
You win. This service outage affects no one. Including me. Just five minutes ago I called up the state office and they’re sending a personal consultant with everything I need to complete an ALTA survey by Monday. I’m so relieved. /s
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4b3hj7 wrote
Are you intentionally misstating what I am saying? I will chose to think you are not and simply don’t understand the point of either article or what the majority of the posts in this thread are about.
If you read you will see most are not about being inconvenienced they are about town records being gone, inaccessible or held hostage. I was pointing out none of those are the case and all the records this company has, the 18% of the state property record, are available for free at your town clerks office. (Or potentially $4/hr max for you to access the books)
While the company adds value, the response to a private data reseller being offline is, for lack of a better term, ignorant.
If you and your business are experiencing hardships because a private company goes offline, that really sucks for you but is not the same as state records being lost or unavailable.
If you can’t see the difference then I’m not sure what to tell you.
MultiGeometry t1_j49pgw9 wrote
This is like saying only entitled people expect librarians to help them find a book. It’s literally the town clerks job to maintain the land records, and anyone who needs help or has questions, has a reasonable expectation that the town clerk wouldn’t call them an entitled prick and to go F off.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4b3pyg wrote
It’s is their job to maintain the records and provide you access, not do your research for you. Nobody is saying you will be called a prick, but expecting the town clerk to pull records for you is peak entitlement.
frisbeegopher t1_j45rpec wrote
The records that COTTS provides online ARE the clerks records. Towns contract with them to provide this service. Typically cotts will send a team in to scan the records and create a database which they then put on their portal. Clerks can then add in new records as they are submitted. It costs too much for smaller towns (15,000-20,000 for startup and an operating fee of around 1,000 a month last I knew). Many towns use NEMRC to provide this service instead because it’s more affordable, but NEMRC doesn’t offer scanning service so that leads to older records not being available in digital form because the clerks don’t have time to deal with it.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j45sgeb wrote
That’s exactly my point. There is nothing the company offers that is not free at the town clerks office.
The state did offer some grant funds to scan in NEMRC a while ago I think but it is still not complete.
frisbeegopher t1_j462c80 wrote
The company offers scanning services, database development and web hosting that allow the records to be accessed via and online portal. Town clerks are not able to offer that on their own. There is absolutely value in being able to access records online versus having to drive to whatever town and spend time in the vault doing research. Town clerks charge an hourly rate for vault access in addition to charging copy fees. Particularly during the pandemic when many clerk offices were closed, online services became even more valuable. In my opinion, the state should work towards a statewide database / online record portal. It would overall be less expensive for residents than towns trying to individually make it happen through contracting with a variety of companies.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j48aswq wrote
They do not charge an access fee. That is incorrect. They charge or decline if you ask them to do your research, as they should.
- the state is working toward a free portal.
*I was mistaken, town clerks have the ability to charge. I apologize for providing incorrect information. My experience was empirical having never been charged in. The town where I have conducted business for in person access to records.
frisbeegopher t1_j48yy8f wrote
A town clerk may charge up to $4.00 per hour for any person to examine the records. The fee is higher if the clerk agrees to examine the record for you. So yes, some clerks may offer you time to examine the record free of charge, but they can (and many do) charge for access. https://legislature.vermont.gov/statutes/section/32/017/01671
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4b2nk6 wrote
I was not aware of that statute and updated my post, thank you.
MultiGeometry t1_j4bamwp wrote
Yet in your other comment threads you’re still arguing I’m entitled.
thisoneisnotasbad t1_j4bdgge wrote
If you think it is the town clerks job to pull land records for you, you are entitled. That should clear up any issues you have with what is being said.
MultiGeometry t1_j49nne4 wrote
I’m going to believe the other responder because they provided proof via state law that town clerks can charge fees…
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