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Barnst t1_j2accx5 wrote

> The police union said certain reforms – including chokehold bans, the improvement of public access to body camera footage and expanded civilian review boards – are responsible for the high homicide numbers.

JFC, police unions, people weren’t restraining themselves from shooting at each other because they were worried you were going to roll up to choke them and then avoid accountability.

Maybe it has more to do with the fact that your murder clearances have been falling since the early 2010s and now there are headlines claiming that you can kill someone and there’s a better than even chance you’ll get away with it. And, funny enough, getting the sort of cooperation from potential witnesses often requires the sort of community trust that comes with NOT choking people out and then accepting public accountability.

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carandfreedomgeek2 t1_j2au3l3 wrote

I thought that quote couldn’t possibly be real…but there it is in the article. What a bunch of idiots. We should fire the whole force and start over.

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Quelcris_Falconer13 t1_j2bzlod wrote

Sounds like a long way of saying “you held us account so now we don’t want to work”

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Obvious-Design8030 t1_j2foe5f wrote

Cops have come and said as much on this subreddit. They won't do their jobs because their feelings got hurt. But also they expect overtime.

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LoganSquire t1_j2c8zfz wrote

It would be nice if the media would stop just copy and pasting this nonsense from the police union and including it as fact in their articles.

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SomeLikeItRaw t1_j2e3ovk wrote

This is one of my perpetual gripes with reporting at all levels - how exceptional this is - any sense of responsibility to fact-check quotes instead of merely repeating them. Trump coverage was the 'exception that proves the rule', if only because he spoke falsely so frequently and flagrantly.

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skiwhatwhat t1_j2eg9v5 wrote

Or print it and call out how absurd it is and how incongruous with facts it is...

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Monkeylint t1_j2eqml8 wrote

"The police union made baseless claims that certain reforms..."

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RandomLogicThough t1_j2bz1yh wrote

Yes, pretty moronic idea ...god, humans: "Things we don't like made murders go up, because! We are probably trying less so we can be whiny mofos"

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Quick-kick95 t1_j2ad5aj wrote

There are certain use of force reforms that have been more of a detriment than a help. Also I think a lack of officers and a willingness to work is a big issue.

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fullstackbuffoon t1_j2adv15 wrote

Use of force restraints do nothing to prevent murders, except murders of citizens by police. For use of force restraints to have any impact on the murder rate would require officers to routinely interrupt murders in progress, showing up after the fact is a deterrent to nothing. Gtfoh.

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Quick-kick95 t1_j2arwrz wrote

Alright well I think going through my history you can see my experience with this. And I'll give my public two cents, without speaking for anyone or anything.

The use of force changes caused a dip in interactions. The use of force shift also changed a lot of other things, chase policy, warrant levels, interactions, lack of stops, lack of contacts etc. Which would normally result in arrests, interdictions, intelligence, interactions in general- stopping, slowing down, or ceasing entirely.

The chokehold ban is a bit of a stretch- but anyone who is trained to fight recognizes that a neck restraint is a very effective method of controlling a subject. But more importantly the actual impact that these reforms had were an observable exodus. This exodus and mass quitting is pretty observable across a lot of first responder communities, from EMTs to cops. A lot of people didn't want to keep up with the work and the treatment they received.

A lot of law enforcement also experienced a brain drain. A lot of knowledge about proper procedure and methods of interdicting criminals left when these people left, or they altogether stopped doing it. Replacement of these people with ten, fifteen years experience in certain fields (narcotics interdiction, firearms recovery etc) is pretty dang hard to get.

In MPD's case, especially, the busier part, patrol (people that drive around and answer 911 calls) is a very understaffed and overworked area that burns people out pretty quickly. Especially in the southern areas of the city, where someone as young as 23-26 can see multiple murders and shootings and other awful things in the span of a few weeks.

This puts a tremendous mental toll on people, and cops are naturally going to be more resilient people after a while but eventually it is going to wear them down. So most people leave for greener pastures in a better department in the area or further away, and thus the cycle continues.

It is not going to get better if they implement similar things continually. Murders will continue to go up, shootings and carjackings will continue if the city keeps up their current trend. And keep in mind MPD's role is a part of the system, I'd place just as much blame on the court system and the release of violent offenders as a recurring issue.

I hope that helps in a more concise and longer answer of why I think things are the way they are.

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Barnst t1_j2azm58 wrote

So I see where you’re coming from and generally am on board with what you’re saying. I’m a little skeptical that chases, stops, and warrant servicing are the best interactions for developing the sorts of relationships that get you good intelligence, but that’d be a better discussion to have over beers if the opportunity ever presented itself.

The problem with the union response is that this sort of knee-jerk excuse to justify a return to the MOST divisive police practices makes it really hard for those of us who want to reform policing with a sympathetic ear toward the actual experience of those policing.

Sure, a chokehold can be a really good way to restrain someone. But it’s also a really good way to inadvertently kill people and generally a bad way to rebuild relations with a community that fundamentally doesn’t trust you. Of ALL the tools you would want as a cop, that seems like a really bad hill to die on. You could also argue that a spiked club is a probably a pretty useful tool for subduing people, but we’re not about to let the cops walk around with them.

The unions here are doing the line duty cop no favors. It’s hard to convince people to have sympathy for the genuinely tough spot many cops find themselves in when all the public sees is stuff like this. It’d be easier if we ever saw ANY sense of real self-awareness and desire to improve from within the policing world rather than the knee-jerk defensiveness and refusal to accept any responsibility.

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LoganSquire t1_j2c8q1n wrote

> The use of force changes caused a dip in interactions.

“If I can’t choke out a minority, I’m not going to do my job anymore”.

Imagine saying this with a straight face as a justification for poor performance.

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NoDesinformatziya t1_j2cjf0n wrote

I don't have to imagine it. Dipshit cops who are bad at their jobs say it every day; good cops don't.

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Quick-kick95 t1_j2ej78m wrote

I think you're misconstruing what I'm saying. I think I laid out what I thought and my experiences with it pretty well, and I think you're not coming from a good place to have a discussion for me to really go on with this. I hope you enjoy your holiday and stay safe.

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damnatio_memoriae t1_j2aqz37 wrote

it's not like all these murders are happening while the police are standing around helplessly wishing they were allowed to choke the perpetrator out.

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