Viewing a single comment thread. View all comments

TheLieDetectorBro t1_jdaazkk wrote

Reply to comment by MeteorPhoenix in Israel says no plan for new settlements in West Bank area evacuated in 2005 by Throwaway08080909070

It's way more complicated than that. Jews have been living in the WB constantly for thousands of years until 1948, when 99% of their communities were ethnically cleansed from there following Israel's independence war and Jordan's control over the area.

I mean, Israel let hundreds of thousands of Palestinians to stay in it's territory and receive equal rights and citizenship (Today they number 2M people, about 20% of Israel). But the Palestinians murdered or expelled all the Jews.

Not that I'm in favor of the settlements, but the situation is complex with good arguments on all sides. redditors are just usually ignorant and see everything through a black and white lens.

Edit: The guy who commented under me apparently blocked me so I can't reply to his factually wrong comment.

Someone should explain to him that his claim that Israel "Couldn't completely ethnic cleanse the land" is incompatible with reality. As the truth is the other way around, and Israel offered the Palestinians sovereignty over the WB and Gaza 5 different times. All refused in favor of an attempt to "Free Palestine from river to sea".

19

Jefe_Chichimeca t1_jdade46 wrote

This guy claiming Israel deserves brownie points because they couldn't completely ethnic cleanse the land they colonized.

Also both-siding a war crime, jesus.

EDIT: Someone should explain to the guy who defends war crimes that committing massacres with the objective of expelling people from their homes and not allowing them to return IS ETHNIC CLEANSING. They did that to Palestinians in what's now Israel in 1948, Palestinians in the West Bank in 1967 and Syrians in the Golan Heights in 1967. Israel is a state founded on war crimes.

−8

[deleted] t1_jdb7p2x wrote

[deleted]

−9

yoyo456 t1_jdbnoy3 wrote

Because the same thing happened to the Jews in Arab countries maybe? For example, how many Jews were in Iraq in 1947? 156,000. How many today? 3.

12

[deleted] t1_jdbsh3n wrote

[deleted]

−7

yoyo456 t1_jdc55cy wrote

>And who started mass expulsion of the population?

Maybe the Palestinians of Hebron in 1929?

>The expulsion of the arabs happened in a matter of weeks the expulsion of the Jewish population happened over years.

Yeah, it happened over years partially because it happened in many countries. Country 1 expelled them one day and country 2 another.

>And unlike you i acknowledge that uprooting people based on their ethnicity is wrong

I also acknowledge that. That's why I said in my previous comment that the same thing happened. Hence drawing the connection between to two.

8

MeteorPhoenix t1_jdakp33 wrote

I don't see how it's more complicated than that. The West Bank and Gaza are considered to be occupied land, which Israel took in war. Settling citizens in occupied land in a war crime, because it's a form of ethnic cleansing. If we cared what happened thousands of years ago, let's just go ahead and revive the Roman Empire then.

Palestinians killed Jews. Ok. Is your argument that this justifies continued settlement in occupied land (again, a war crime)? Palestinian terrorism or inability to compromise on borders is not a justification for settlement of Palestinian lands by Israeli citizens.

−13

TheLieDetectorBro t1_jdakv4c wrote

> If we cared what happened thousands of years ago, let's just go ahead and revive the Roman Empire then.

TIL 1948 was "Thousands of years ago"

15

MeteorPhoenix t1_jdal7iu wrote

You led with them being there for thousands of years, which doesn't matter.

But ok. Crimea was transferred to Ukraine in 1954. This fact doesn't make Crimea Russian. Atrocities on the Jews in 1948 doesn't justify war crimes in 2023.

−9

TheLieDetectorBro t1_jdamofp wrote

Look, I object to the settlements. They do nothing to help any sort of possible peace.

But the fact is that the Palestinians have refused a peace deal and autonomy over this land. Israel offered it 5 times already.

What they did offer to Israel is an endless amount of suicide bombers, explosive charges, guns, knives, molotovs and more, all targeted specifically against Israeli innocent civilians.

These are actually crimes against humanity, the most evil kind. It's time the Palestinians show they are actually willing to go for peace on their side as well.

Did you know the Palestinian leadership pays pensions to terrorists who murdered Israeli civilians? They even pay you more the more you kill, this is not a joke.

Not to mention their education system teaching literal 3 years old to attack Jews and much more.

These are all incredibly serious crimes that started happening long before the settlements became such a problem.

Also, Israel has already attempted evacuating all settlements around the Gaza strip, all they got in return is tens of thousands of rockets directed on their cities. You read that right, tens of thousands.

What I'm getting at is, you can call people settling a land that was taken from them violently 70 years ago "War criminals" all you want. But if you want anything productive to actually happen, maybe start looking to the Palestinians to prove, for the first time in history, that they are willing to make an actual peace. I promise you this will empower the Israeli left again and the settlements will be solved.

And BTW, all of this violence coming from the Palestinians towards Israelis, makes your comparison to Ukraine incredibly empty and ridiculous, so I suggest stopping with that one if you care at all about actual facts and honesty.

16

MeteorPhoenix t1_jdaon1s wrote

None of this, none of this, has anything to do with settlements. These are all arguments for a continued military presence in the areas, raids, attacks, etc. Gaza given you problems? Send the army in, crush the people bombing you. Those are military responses to military problems and they are not war crimes.

This is not what we're discussing. We're discussing state-backed settlements into a land seized by force, which coupled with the demolitions of Palestinians houses and villages, is open ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. Absolutely zero of the things you've described are.improved by settlements. Clearly Israel isn't bothered with the bombs, guns and knives if it pursues policies that worsen those problems with no clear goal in mind beyond wanting the land. The settlements make any two state solution actually impossible. So then what, what's the goal?

You want them to hate you less? Stop demolishing their houses.

−4

TheLieDetectorBro t1_jdapma5 wrote

> None of this, none of this, has anything to do with settlements. These are all arguments for a continued military presence in the areas, raids, attacks, etc. Gaza given you problems? Send the army in, crush the people bombing you. Those are military responses to military problems and they are not war crimes.

I 100% agree to this. Which is why I am against the settlements and am in the streets for months now protesting against our shittiest government to date.

But reality is more complex than that and after so much violence, as I demonstrated in my comment, you can easily understand why Israelis are becoming more radicalized too, not just the Palestinians. To this date, all serious major attempts for peace only came from Israel, I'm afraid it would be much easier for us to cool things down if the other side will reciprocate that sentiment, just a tiny bit...

I mean you can talk ideals all you want but people are people. And when you have to run away with your kids at 4 am for the third time that night to the shelter because of the Palestinian leaders, don't be surprised when many Israelis let the extremists win and do whatever they like.

> coupled with the demolitions of Palestinians houses and villages

This is entirely a myth. Settlements are built on empty lands 99.99% of times and the vast amounts of house demolitions happening are inside Israel's territory to illegally built houses, where the same laws apply to both Jews and Israeli-Arabs.

The rest (The minority by far) are usually houses of Palestinian terrorists who murdered Israelis. This is done as a tiny form of justice, as the Palestinian authorities will not only won't attempt to stop the terrorist, but actually pay him or his family pensions for life for the successful murder of Israelis. (Called the Martyr fund, you are welcome to look it up).

In that way they incentivize our murders economically, so destroying the house is at least something.

13

MeteorPhoenix t1_jdb6ias wrote

Look, I understand the legitimate security issues Israel faces. I don't live through it and I don't want to live through it, but I understand. Retreating from Paleatine isn't going to bring peace, I know that. Some sort of military occupation is going to continue until the bombs stop.

What I can't understand, and what makes me angry, is that Israelis time and again vote for people, parties and policies that make the security situation worse. At a certain point, it just makes most of the voting public cruel. Just stop settling in the West Bank! If there's an illegal settlement, kick them out! All it does is create more death and suffering for both nations, and for what? I don't get it.

0

yoyo456 t1_jdbn82i wrote

>Just stop settling in the West Bank!

If it means anything, there have been very very few new settlements in the past years. Nearly all of the building (that was done legally) was done in and around existing settlements.

>If there's an illegal settlement, kick them out!

In 2005, at the same time that Israel kicked out all of the settlers from Gaza, they evacuated several settlements in Northern Samaria, but the military stayed. And what did Israel get? One of the most lawless areas where terrorists freely walk around with assault rifles and people are such extremists that German tourists going through get attacked because they have Israeli license plates. Even just taking the settlers out doesn't solve any problems or make the situation any better.

6