Dead_Optics t1_iuhnugz wrote on October 31, 2022 at 12:31 PM

Reply to comment by Arkane-Light in Russia strikes 18 targets, most of which are energy facilities by HarakenQQ

Is this a political or an ideological aim? In my mind war doesn’t fall into ether of those categories.

Arkane-Light t1_iuho5bu wrote on October 31, 2022 at 12:34 PM

Both, in the case of how Russia sees this war.

Putin has repeated many times in the first months of the war at public rallies in Moscow that he wanted to "Re-conquer all former Soviet territories starting with Ukraine" and justified the invasion with the rhetoric of "Russia created Ukraine, it is our duty to make that country ours". Plus a load of paranoia-infused insanity he spouted.

Dead_Optics t1_iuhoyug wrote on October 31, 2022 at 12:41 PM

That’s kinda my point the war is being fought for land rather than an ideology. While yes some of ghe rhetoric used in the justification would suggest this was an ideological war we know that’s false and the real reason is land.

DuncanConnell t1_iui11he wrote on October 31, 2022 at 2:18 PM

War itself is literally a terrorist act. There's no situation at any point in world history where an offensive war is not terroristic--even if it is persecuted against nations committing genocide, to that nation (now fighting defensively) those invading are the terrorists who are attacking and trying to force an ideology counter to the nation's owns.

Just because "the real reason is land" doesn't mean there's not ideological and political aims for it.

^(Below is written from a propagandist POV and literally every single one of them can be conflated with "land". I) ^(don't) ^(believe any of these beyond the fact that this is what Russia has stated and tells its people.)

Ideological
- Rid Ukraine of control by Nazi Government and stop the murder/genocide occurring against the Russian demographics in Luhansk/Donetsk
- Reclaim parts of "historical Russia" prior to its breakup with the fall of the USSR (viewpoint that Russa = USSR borders) and restore cultural ties and security for the Russian people
(Geo)Political
- Prevent the Eastward expansion of the EU and NATO to ensure greater border security amid the last few turbulent years after successive impacts against the economy, demographics within Russia, and the upsetting of the world interconnectivity due to COVID restrictions.
- Ensure greater presence within Europe and create a convex borderline to provide both greater pressure against European nations as well as greater security for Russian allies (Belarus, Transnistria, Turkey, etc).
Economic
- Gain access to Ukraines large deposits of natural gas as well as secure control of Crimea as well as control a larger portion of the Black Sea, allowing greater shipping access and naval security.
- Prevent interference by world markets in isolating Russia by allowing easier access to African and Mediterranean allies as well as improving trade accessibility to Southern European markets.

Even if Russia outright said "we are invading to claim the gas fields to increase Putin's profits" there's still an ideological bent to it.

Mountain_Offer1348 t1_iuho92l wrote on October 31, 2022 at 12:35 PM

You don’t think war is used to advance political and ideological goals??

Dead_Optics t1_iuhoe1o wrote on October 31, 2022 at 12:36 PM

By that definition every country who’s ever waged war are terrorists at which point the term losses it’s meaning.

ChaosDancer t1_iuhu24w wrote on October 31, 2022 at 1:25 PM

Ye when the US was bombing Iraq and Afghanistan there were no ideological or political goals present, so i guess the people that died in those places should have been happy they weren't killed by terrorists.

Dead_Optics t1_iuhuqxm wrote on October 31, 2022 at 1:30 PM

Sick strawman. The argument I’m making is that terrorism is a fairly specific thing and that by broadening the scope of what makes something terrorism it will lose its meaning.

iglidante t1_iuioixt wrote on October 31, 2022 at 4:58 PM

> By that definition every country who’s ever waged war are terrorists at which point the term losses it’s meaning.

I mean, if a country wages an offensive war against another country that hasn't first attacked them or an ally (so, there is no defensive component) - how can you say they are not acting as terrorists? War is fundamentally immoral for most people, barring specific exceptions.