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Vertitto t1_j1vn2be wrote

Reply to comment by Sticky_Robot in Ukraine lessens projected GDP fall from 50% to 32% by sviterochec

as long as the funds will be used well. Both Ukrainians and EU/other donators should control each penny and punish misuse harshly

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UnapologeticBritish t1_j1vnce3 wrote

Well, the political will is there. One large contributor for this war was the ousting of previous corrupt russia-alighned governments.

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Vertitto t1_j1vnzhq wrote

that can switch quickly once funds start flowing. It was (and still is) a problem in EU, it will be a big check for Ukraine as it was much longer under super corrupt system

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Schyte96 t1_j1wbxsk wrote

Could be a really interesting EU readiness test if you think about it.

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thatsme55ed t1_j1w1bfc wrote

Hopefully the fact that a significant proportion of the people in the country are trained and experienced in violence as a problem solving method will actually be a stabilizing factor.

Normal corruption methods don't work when you have to worry the person you're trying to swindle has an AK47 in their closet. When the GI's returned to America from WW2 there was at least one instance of them clearing out a corrupt local government the hard way.

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Vertitto t1_j1wmoiu wrote

it can also work the other way - war ends, infrastructure is ruined, lot of potential shady people as ton of people/docuemnts are lost, many home companies are killed off by foreign corporations or getting bought, ton of scams pop up when big money starts to flow, lot of weapons everywhere and thousands of people with military trauma

It's a prime environment for organised crime, it can be '90s all over again

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thatsme55ed t1_j1wxmzl wrote

Yeah that's possible, but the influx of money after will help stabilize Ukraine like the Marshall plan. South Korea after the Korean War and Europe after WW2 show it's possible to avoid a full on collapse of society if you give people funds, hope and a plan.

The 90's was a collapse because the entire system collapsed into total anarchy after the internal rot reached the tipping point. No one knew who to trust or how to make things work.

Ukraine has friends, access to Europe, access to credit, easy access to the internet and information, a charismatic leader and a population that is motivated to build back better.

It's not guaranteed of course, but corruption by definition involves stealing from the many to benefit the few. When the many are trained, disciplined and motivated it's a lot harder to do that.

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TROPtastic t1_j1wfgao wrote

Corruption in Ukraine deserves a lot of scrutiny, for sure. Fortunately, Ukraine has an active and resilient network of civil activists that the EU/outside NGOs can help, instead of trying to build an anti-corruption culture from scratch.

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mothtoalamp t1_j1w9yae wrote

Aversion to Russian influence will likely be at an all time high when reconstruction begins. That should help somewhat.

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1MoralHazard t1_j1vqb28 wrote

The inherent selfishhness that drives corruption is often set aside during times of collective trauma. Your neighbor suffered just as much as you when you had to cower in the hallways during the raid sirens as the missiles annihilated the playground outside. As terrible as this has been, this will rebuild a certain comraderie that was destroyed by years of engrained soviet "individualism".

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MyGoodOldFriend t1_j1vvemy wrote

Nope. Corruption does not die during times of struggle. I can’t think of a single historical example.

The conception that “common struggle brings out the best in us” is largely from the event turning into a national story. The blitz, for example, was characterized by an epidemic of crime and chaos - which was turned into a simplistic story about a stiff upper lip in the postwar years.

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porncrank t1_j1y70ys wrote

You're right and wrong. Which isn't that surprising when talking about something as broad and complex as human society. There's no question that people can and often do band together and help each other during times of suffering. There are countless examples. It's just that not all people do. Even in the most cohesive societies helping each other out there are always corrupt and selfish individuals -- opportunists preying on the rest. They will always be there.

So when hard times come, the majority of common people work together to survive. But they do so under attack from a handful of shitty people that can only think to enrich themselves.

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MyGoodOldFriend t1_j1y7mji wrote

Yeah, exactly. The point is that societal problems don’t go away in times of a common struggle. Like corruption during an invasion, or crime during the blitz. There was and is plenty of good that comes out, though - of course.

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