Oh wow its inconclusive, totally disproves my entire theory. Remember when Trump criticized the media for reporting on that rather than just deny it? If it didn't happen then why not just deny it?

You really are trying very hard to make Russia just seem like a good actor thats misunderstood aren't you? You actually just buy into that blantant and obvious propaganda?

Its super obvious and transparent what your doing. You know Russia is evil and 100% in the wrong in this war and so you are trying to distract by arguing about unrelated issues and trying to poke holes in my arguement, except you are using broken logic and fallacy arguments.

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I'm done with this, try not to drink too much of the Russia koolaid

Firstly I’m not dismissing the deaths of people who died at the hands of the US. It’s just completely irrelevant to the conversation and is a blatant attempt at whataboutism.

Secondly Trump was Russian backed, and it was more than advertising. Don’t forgot the 2016 hacking of the DNC by the Russian government, the Russian funding, the Russian bounties on American military members…

At this point you are either a Russian propagandist, or you really did drink the Fox news coolaid and believe propaganda from known liars.

Literally full of shit. Americas past foreign policy mistakes don’t justify Russias evil ones. These aren’t even remotely similar situations. Your whataboutism tactic is failing

But if we are going to completely ignore the moral implications and only focus on the interests side of things… The US interests while not the exact same as Ukraines are aligned here. It’s in the USAs best interest to ensure Ukraine succeeds and Russia fails, miserably. Luck for us we also happen to have the moral imperative here.

Russia has been a thorn and even an active threat to the West. They even tried to interfere in US elections and backed a fucking coup attempt. Our interests is that Russia, or at least Putin’s regime, falls. If they aren’t stopped here then we’ll have to stop them later. And if it’s later it’ll cost a hell of a lot more money and lives, including American ones. Honestly we are getting a hell of a bargain. Literally destroying Russia via a proxy war that costs a very small percentage of the military budget, let alone the cost of a war we’d have to wage ourselves. Hell we even get to test out our own equipment and clear out old inventory.

Basically it’s American money now, or American boots later. And as a male that’s the draft age, I’ll take the former.

Literally proving my point. It’s is a resource rich region. Firstly, not all resources have been discovered since the beginning of time. They find them throughout time and some were discovered more recently. Secondly, being a client state Russia could very easily and freely trade with Ukraine on their own terms. Issue came when Ukraine toppled their Russian puppet and actually established self rule. That’s what triggered this whole thing. Russia has to take the region by force rather than just have the puppets give it to them. This is literally so easy to logically think through.

It quite literally is good vs evil. The fantasy here is the bs Russian propaganda trying to justify this invasion. I mean by god this is one of the single most blatantly black and white war since probably WW2.

Also why do you keep bringing up American involvement in other wars? It literally doesn’t matter as that’s not what we are discussing

Yeah no, nothing less than every inch of Ukrainian territory being recaptured is an unacceptable outcome. And the war could have been prevented I’d Russia didn’t invade Ukraine. They had literally zero reason to do so, and only have themselves to blame. Only Russia is responsible for this.

A negotiated settlement that doesn’t maintain Ukraines territorial integrity and sovereignty is quite literally horrible for humanities future not to mention just flat out wrong

Firstly we’re aren’t talking about Kosovo and Serbia we are talking about Ukraine.

Secondly, if we are going to talk about this then the difference is that was an actual issue of self determination. Ukraine wasn’t repressing ethnic Russians. Serbia was repressing Kosovo people. Kosovo independence was a legit home growth self determination independence movement, whereas what’s happening in East Ukraine was a Russia starting and funding a Russian minority led insurgency. It was never about self determination, it was about annexation that part of Ukraine into russia because it’s a resource rich region

Also the right to self determination is exactly what Ukraine is fighting for here.

Why exactly should the Russian minority in East get self determination but the Ukraine majority doesn’t? Russia literally started and supplied the breakaway independence movement. You don’t get to just start a rebellion in another country using your own people and claim it as a legit call for self determination.

Let’s honor the original agree, the nuclear one. Every peace settlement since then has just been carving up Ukraine in a bit for appeasement. Appeasement doesn’t work.

Worthy in this case is help the sovereign and independent country of Ukraine (who is western friendly and very interested in being our ally) defend themselves from an aggressor invading them. Countries have a right to defend themselves when attacked, full stop.

That alone makes it worthy but there are also some other facts that reenforce that fact and make it more worthy:

A) Russia is quite literally genociding the Ukrainians in the areas they occupy. Prevalent proof of a slew of war crimes including torture and rape, as well as mass murder to them. And yes that does include children too.

B) literally all the claims Russia made to justify this is just straight up false. Or completely ridiculous in their premise. Ie Nazis?? Please, Russia is much more fascist and every country has groups of neo nazis, not an excuse to invade said country.

C) Ukraine gave up nukes in exchange for guarantees for territorial integrity. Both Russia and US agreed to that. Now they are being invaded, if we allow that invasion to succeed it sets a very VERY dangerous precedent that will greater increase the chances of nuclear war occurring in our long term future.

We really aren’t though. It’s a worthy cause that will save us money and lives in the long run.

Lmao Russian bots got in early on this thread.

Say what you will about corruption in either country, aid money being misused is actually not very plausible and in fact it would be surprising if US tax money was misused in Ukraine.

1. US make it very clear our support and by extension tax aid money would dry up very fast if aid funds were misused, which could compromise the war effort.
2. So basically corruption with US aid money is an existential threat to Ukraine in a very real and immediate sense. Not only could it potentially be treasonous to misuse those funds as a Ukrainian, but the ones that would likely misuse would probably lose their wealth and power if Ukraine loses the war.
3. Corruption crack down is actually a very good thing that is a good sign. It looks bad having all these scandals come to light, however its important to remember that all this was happening in the dark, and therefore the corruption was already there. The fact these are coming to light and the perps are facing real consequences, shows Ukraine is cleaning house and ridding itself of its corruption. Ironically the process of becoming less corrupt makes them look more corrupt than before even though they are objectively less corrupt.

Also lets not forget that we aren't exactly handing them crates full of money, we have a lot more control and checks in place to ensure the money is being spent and used in the way we allocated it for.

All other considerations aside, can we just talk about how weird the shape of the US would be if this actually happened?

Have you ever gone skeet shooting? If you haven’t it’s when you shoot clay pigeons with a shotgun. Anyway, the trick is to aim where the clay pigeon is going to be, not where it is now. If you aim directly at it, you will miss, but if you aim in front of it a little bit, the shot will intercept the clay pigeon.

Basically the same principle applies here. Aim for where the Star will be, not where it is. Account for both your and the stars relative speed, and calculate the coordinates to “aim” for. So actually it kinda would be a calculation done by the nav computer

No. It’s a defensive alliance . No country should be forced to defend another they didn’t explicitly agree to defend. That being said, Turkey is being dicks about this whole thing.