We've been through about 7 fake spring / winters cycles this year. Argh.

No snow?

All I can say is fuck the Wilks Bros.

You're just throwing shit at a wall at this point. People can file lawsuits over anything they want, and unless you somehow completely revamp the judicial system in this country, there's nothing you can do to stop them. You hope that if their case is BS it gets thrown out early by a motion to dismiss or eventually on summary judgment, and that the court awards sanctions or fees, but that still requires a defendant to litigate

Right? There's literally 49 other states that do things a different way, some more regulated, some less. And none have the charm or appeal of Vermont.

Yeah, this is true. My previous comment was certainly too lazy and lacked nuance.

Government (at any level) really doesn't do long term planning at all. In fact, I can't think of a single policy or program that is long term focused, other than maybe public lands conservation.

Probably something similar to Maine...

In a very short time a whole bunch of people moved into Boise from wealthier states and drove the median price from about $240k to over $560k... that's in just under 3 years.

Meanwhile our minimum wage is still $7.25/hr and wages simply haven't kept pace.

We still do build a lot, more and more year over year, but we've just hit a limit on how much we can pump out. Partially because of the number of construction workers we have in the area, plus Covid-related shut downs, supply chain issues, developers not wanting to over leverage or carry risk, how long it took to restart construction coming out of the 2008 Recession, etc. A while bunch of reasons.

So we're behind and getting more behind, but it isn't a zoning or "NIMBY" issue either. We've capped out how much we are able to build. And over the past 6 months developers are pushing pause on projects.

It's not just a sprawl or density thing either. We're doing both. We have an entire downtown area (west downtown) which is mostly empty parking lots, that is already zoned for multiuse, multifamily, no height limit, high density development. Developers aren't bringing those projects (lots of reasons why).

So yeah, it's complicated. Far beyond what a single planner can do. But it's always fun when the actual armchair planners (like you) tell me what's what... especially when they're usually in their mid 20s and have just started watching Strongtowns or Notjustbikes over the last year or two and are now experts on everything. It makes for a good laugh.

So while places build new housing for prices to maybe fall 10 or 20 years from now, eff the people that need relief right now?

Well, except I'm actually an urban planner (for over 20 years) and I actually mod the urban planning forum, but nevermind all that, right....?

I'm curious. It's why I asked the question. I don't presume to know much about Maine.

Maybe I don't. That's why I asked.

But historic housing prices and population growth rates would suggest otherwise, even in Portland, up until around 2019-ish.

Unlike where I'm from (Boise) which has had one of the highest growth rates over the past 20 years, even more so over the past 5, and the surge in prices reflect that. And even so we weren't dramatically under built until maybe around 2019. Certainly wasn't in most of the rest of that, which had a more flat (or declining) population and low housing prices (sub $200k) until 2020, and now most stuff is above $300k.

There's something else going on. There's no way Rupert Idaho has ubderbuilt homes over the past 20 years when people were literally leavong, population was declining, and house prices were cheap (but not now).

And I recognize you from some of the planning forums... and you're a complete ideologue about this stuff.

Has Maine really been underbuilding housing?

I feel like for over 20 years Maine has seen very low, steady population growth of ~ 1% (which is just right - you don't want to be flat or losing population, and you don't want too high of a growth rate) and housing has generally been pretty affordable.

Of course, that's not uniform across the state. Most of Maine has been losing population while the Portland metro and some of coastal Maine has added population faster and has higher housing costs because of it.

But even the Portland metro has been fairly affordable until the past few years.

It seems to me this is more of a sign of exaggerated recent demand that a historical lack of new house construction.

Maybe I'm wrong?

Saved!

"Don't want to change a thing...."

"We need more housing and economic growth..."

Folks, there's nothing special or unique about Vermont compared to a dozen other states. The difference is Vermont has chosen to protect and insulate itself from the very type of growth y'all excoriate when you go to other states.

There are other mountainous states (seriously, the mountains in Idaho make those in Vermont look like cute little bumps). There are other rural and pastoral states. There are other cold weather states.

But Vermont has been able to escape much of those growth and development which has, frankly, ruined some of those other states. But that comes at a cost - which is expensive housing, poor infrastructure, and lack of economic opportunity. Vermont is a gated resort, and that's the charm.

You start to go down the path of embracing growth and development, it will absolutely look just like everywhere else (otherwise it would be too expensive and wouldn't pencil out).

Fair warning from someone watching their state be decimated by growth and development.

Hasn't Vermont's population been declining for the past 20 years, until 2021?

Will be interesting to see how it shakes out.

Must be tough. As if for decades kids weren't doing the same thing.

Maybe we blame all of our current social woes and individual maladies on the fact we had to wait for the bus in the dark as kids.

This is where we are in 2022.

The veracity and methodology of "studies" no longer matter. All that matters is that a study was conducted and you can generate headlines from it.

Now people can find this study and use it as "proof" of some argument they're trying to make, whatever that might be.