Submitted by WallStreetDoesntBet t3_xvir6r in Futurology
The move is expected to hurt Apple more than other electronic companies.
Comments
variousred t1_ir15ta1 wrote
RIP charger innovation.
variousred t1_ir15woq wrote
Here’s hoping usbc is good enough for the rest of time
FuturologyBot t1_ir19oq3 wrote
The following submission statement was provided by /u/WallStreetDoesntBet:
Apple has in the past warned that the proposal would hurt innovation and create waste.
The change had been discussed for years and was prompted by complaints from iPhone and Android users about having to switch to different chargers for their devices.
The vote confirms an earlier agreement among EU institutions and will make USB-C connectors used by Android-based devices the EU standard, forcing Apple to change its charging port for its devices.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/xvir6r/eu_votes_to_force_all_phones_to_use_same_charger/ir13tdz/
SnappyPoster t1_ir1dbxb wrote
Pretty good so far, good quality cables and good quality plug and your not going to wrong!
danbriant t1_ir1diud wrote
Especially as that one cable providing it's the right plug can also do your laptops, phones, and some major games consoles as well.
Informal-Notice-4274 t1_ir1e06u wrote
I feel like apple would rather just remove the charging port than switch to USB-C.
jgzman t1_ir1hjn8 wrote
What exactly do we want in charger innovation, anyway?
variousred t1_ir1hpcd wrote
A faster horse.
Lorion97 t1_ir1ihnc wrote
All apple phones now come with a wireless charger that has it's own kind of plug and scans if your phone is apple or not.
Bypasses the "phone chargers must all be the same".
A_Doormat t1_ir1pkb9 wrote
When USB-C no longer satisfies for whatever reason, will they update this law and pick a new standard?
What is the criteria how a new standard is decided? Who decides it, how, when, why, etc..
I like this idea because it is a pain having a ton of proprietary cables, but I also know once the government is involved it can go sideways.
I picture companies lobbying to make their new port the standard, even though it actually sucks and users hate it. Of course it just so happens this company owns the patent for this port, and the factories that produce it and my oh my would they profit once it becomes the enforced standard. That kind of BS.
IslandDoggo t1_ir1s1b7 wrote
There are provisions for that.
striderwhite t1_ir1togh wrote
> The move is expected to hurt Apple more than other electronic companies.
Oh well...it's not that they paid all the taxes they had to pay in Europe...
striderwhite t1_ir1u31p wrote
They could also remove the iPhone.
Kewkky t1_ir1utvh wrote
Obviously if the technology community develops something better we'll swap to it legally. Laws aren't set in stone for all eternity. It's bullshit that you have to own so many cables of different connectors just to be able to charge all your devices at home. if anything, THAT'S what's causing waste.
Also, as an electrical engineer, there's only so much improvement you can do to plugs and cables. Most of the improvement is with the devices themselves. If you need to use more pins in a cable, then add them in there but keep the shell of the plug the same. Most of the time plugs don't even use all the pins they have available. As long as you can connect a USB-C cable to any device that uses USB-C and it works, then innovate within those bounds.
Bill_Buttersr t1_ir1uva7 wrote
OnePlus has a proprietary changing brick that came with the OnePlus 8. Fastest charging at the time. USB C. Still charges from any old brick.
Aceticon t1_ir1yi3g wrote
The rule is for phones and other devices that need charging, not chargers, so having a wireless charger which you do your own way does not "bypass" the rule.
The phone must support charging according to a specific set of specifications, so Apple has no other option than to "support charging according to a specific set of specifications" on their devices, which they will likely do by providing a charging port according to those specs along with their proprietary wireless charging.
If their phones did not support charging following the spec defined in the rules, no matter how many other alternative charging methods they provided their phones would still not be compliant and would not be allowed for sale in the EU as what's demanded is "you must support at least this".
oldnuthammer t1_ir1z7kt wrote
USB-C has little standardization...You can potentially damaged your electronics connecting the wrong powerbrick and usb-c cable to your devices due to the wide range of power the cable can supply, 5v at 3a to 48v at 5a.
If they wanted to they could update USB-C to 2.0, 3.0, and on and on. There is no need to develop an entirely new format with a different connector and port design.
flipmcf t1_ir1zbc3 wrote
You are correct. usbc is backwards compatible, but does have additional protocols for better charging. In fact, an old brick might not charge your new phone well, although the interface works. Newer phones might use power barely faster than the brick can provide. Try Charging a Note 20 with an old brick overnight....
For example, there is an entire handshake that happens over usbc that can say "can I do 10v" or "I can do 15v". An 80-watt USBC charger can potentially charge your phone in 5 minutes to full charge, but there is additional circuitry to implement the USB Power Delivery specification.
USB-C is superior to lightning in every category. Apple is going to drop lightning soon, and this makes sure they stay on a standards track.
Aceticon t1_ir1zi10 wrote
I've worked in Tech for over 2 decades, mostly in the bleeding edge, and innovation is mostly used as bullshit word, especially by the big corps such as Apple.
This time too, it's bullshit: nobody stops Apple from providing innovative charging solutions beyond what the rules determine as all they define is the minimum spec for a charging solution that must be supported, not the maximum.
(And lets not get started on what exactly Apple has done in all the time they've had until now to as they call it "innovate" in the charging of their phones: almost all their "innovations" were ways to force owners of Apple devices to buy Apple chargers)
Aceticon t1_ir1zwy3 wrote
That's the thing: nobody stops them from supporting "innovative" charging solutions as long as they also support this specific minimum.
Surelly Apple's "innovation" in charging can win in the market by its own merits rather than by owners of Apple devices having no other option.
shawntw77 t1_ir20dpt wrote
I remember when I thought my old ipad was broken because it wasnt charging. Took it to an apple center and they told me I just needed an apple made charger because third party chargers no longer work. They have the technology to force people to use their branded chargers, so is there anything stopping them from doing the same with usb c?
flipmcf t1_ir218o4 wrote
This is short-sighted and capitalistic.
https://www.lifewire.com/usb-c-vs-lightning-5206813
When a market leader has such a high adoption rate (monopoly-like) that's when innovation stops. That's what lightning and apple have.
USB-c protocol came out in 2012, the same year that apple lightning hit the market. Lighting was better than anything currently on the market, but usb-c was designed to be so much better, and to be a standard.
If anything, apple FAILED to innovate on charger tech. Otherwise they would have had an answer to the industry standard usb-c by now.
Don't get fooled by capitalist retorhic. Innovation can happen in socialist markets also. Look into the Bi-Pin connector to see a historical analog to this phone power charger fight today.
flipmcf t1_ir22ewy wrote
- We want a charger to also be a data cable.
- we want a charger to understand the load that the device is asking for, and charge devices both safely and quickly.
This means that if a phone is wanting 120W to fast charge it's circa 2040 sulfer-hydride battery and you plug it in to a circa 2010 USB brick, you don't burn your house down.
Conversely, when you plug in your Galaxy Note 10 into your 2040 terawatt brick, your phone won't explode when it gets a 40V DC potential.
Yet - the actual interface, the 'connectors' should remain the same, so you don't have to go to computerzone and find out if your special cable is in stock.
flipmcf t1_ir237bf wrote
oh, so you mean an IEEE meeting?
flipmcf t1_ir240at wrote
The specification is here:
https://usb.org/document-library/usb-power-delivery
USB Implementers Forum, Inc. is a non-profit corporation founded by the group of companies that developed the Universal Serial Bus specification. The USB-IF was formed to provide a support organization and forum for the advancement and adoption of Universal Serial Bus technology. The Forum facilitates the development of high-quality compatible USB peripherals (devices), and promotes the benefits of USB and the quality of products that have passed compliance testing. Some of the many activities that the USB-IF supports include:
There is nothing stopping another company from competing with this tech, but most companies get on board because forcing your customers to buy specialized equipment like chargers and stuff is a bad move. Unless you're Apple that has historically strong customer loyalty.... well, 'had'. I think those days are gone.
[deleted] t1_ir243yy wrote
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thastealth t1_ir27co1 wrote
Well Apple has one other option: not sell to the EU market. In this case the money they loose is bigger than the cost of implementing this/loosing out on their proprietary crap, so they’ll do it
thastealth t1_ir287rt wrote
Because it isn’t in the specification
Bill_Buttersr t1_ir2a3d7 wrote
That's the beautiful thing about this. It won't innovate at all. Apple fan boys will cry that they aren't being forced to use an incredibly outdated connection. Apple will come in middle of the pack on charging, like they do for everything else. Maybe a generation or two will be nice, but it's a matter of time before they make a proprietary charging solution that only works on the iPhone, with slow charge (or wireless) as a fallback.
Aceticon t1_ir2ae6m wrote
Calling that an "option" is like saying that sepukku is an "option" for curing a flu - strictly speaking it's true but practically speaking it's not because of the massive downsides.
thastealth t1_ir2ar2u wrote
Well you can bet your right lung on it that Apple made the calculations if they would pull out of the EU.
Klai8 t1_ir2bo7a wrote
EDIT: as many of you geniuses can’t understand, lightning came out in the microusb era. Guess what industry titan decided to make the plug symmetrical?
Look I understand all of your frustrations. It this legislation is foolish by nature…lightning is a million times better than micro-usb BECAUSE it’s symmetrical and less prone to breaking. Sometimes companies need to be forced to innovate and forcing every company in Europe to adopt usb-c is short-sighted.
[deleted] t1_ir2c2wm wrote
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HopefulEuclid t1_ir2nk3w wrote
Yeah no Apple didn't consider pulling out of the EU over a charging port, much like Facebook and Google didn't considering pulling out over GDPR. The EU is a larger market than even the US, they'd be looking at double digit percentage profit drops, and no publicly traded company is explaining to investors why their stock price just took an apocalyptic hit over dumb shit like that. Anything the EU mandates is basically an inconvenience to tech giants.
[deleted] t1_ir2ovun wrote
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[deleted] t1_ir2pxmo wrote
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SanityOrLackThereof t1_ir2wvst wrote
Europe is the second largest economy in the world. Apple is not going to pull out of anything.
ictu t1_ir30sfu wrote
Seppuku wouldn't be a thing if it wasn't an option
felixrocket7835 t1_ir313kv wrote
but they're not using micro-usb though? lol
what's your point.
felixrocket7835 t1_ir31ie0 wrote
This is great, USB-C is fast and *symmetrical* plus in my experience, the cables break a ton less than micro-usb and lightning.
zeezyman t1_ir32lmt wrote
Lucky that the regulations in the EU have a special clause about revising said regulations periodically, so it can be adjusted or scrapped if needed
[deleted] t1_ir335vd wrote
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rikardoflamingo t1_ir33rd7 wrote
EU rule fetishists getting a good endorphin hit off this little set of arbitrary constraints.
Solves nothing.
Chubbybellylover888 t1_ir35gh0 wrote
It's our secret power. This soft power of the EU has not gone unrecognised.
I worked in consumer electronics in Asia. They all manufcfittied to EU standards when pushed by the spec. And the spec was written thst way because once you comply EU standards, you comply with most standards with an exception here and there.
Their impact on product standards has not gone unnoticed.
JohnInDC t1_ir379ve wrote
I guess we should just be grateful that the earlier proposal to standardize on micro USB failed.
psychocopter t1_ir3d6i1 wrote
If somehow they manage to skirt around this legislation by removing the charging port they probably won't include a charging cable/brick in the box. Everyone seems to be moving away from offering a charging cable with their device and trying to justify it every which way to avoid saying it was to make them more money.
Landmen t1_ir3dkxf wrote
If they all went wireless charging I would be perfectly fine with that. Or a magsafe style connector. USB C standards are far too fucked up right now.
Landmen t1_ir3dzq2 wrote
I would rather focus on wireless charging. Cables are so 19th century.
bjplague t1_ir3jzop wrote
good.
got 3 different phones in the family with 3 different chargers.
combine this with right to repair and we are on our way to a greener environment with less electric garbage.
only reason we have different chargers is to make more money for phone companies anyhow.
break a charger? sorry can not use another, have to go to buy an apple specific charger.
MrWoodlawn t1_ir3kh42 wrote
Gatekeeping innovation always has unintended consequences.
MrWoodlawn t1_ir3l4x3 wrote
I prefer the Apple lightning cable over usb-c for phones and small devices.
MrWoodlawn t1_ir3lepi wrote
>Apple users should be pretty happy about this, one less cable type to worry about.
Why do you feel the need to dictate which cables I use? Society is weird, man. I quite like the lightning connector because it is thin and has a satisfying snap.
Apple should just do away with the charge port all-together if they can. That'll show 'em.
MrWoodlawn t1_ir3lno5 wrote
People like to be able to get on their high horse and tell others what to do. They know best!
They would have mandated micro USB if they could have and we'd all still be using that hot garbage today.
GiantFlimsyMicrowave t1_ir3m5i4 wrote
This will help Apple. More Android holdouts will now consider iPhones now that they don’t need those pesky proprietary chargers.
slower-is-faster t1_ir3sich wrote
They could just stop calling it a phone. It’s really one of its least used features anyway, sure it can make calls, but that’s like calling your car a chair.
slower-is-faster t1_ir3ss5y wrote
Some cars have sims and can make calls, does this make them a phone? Do electric cars need to be usb-c chargeable ?
nyx_stef t1_ir3t33q wrote
Usb-C is actually designed to stand more usage than micro-usb, it's in the spec.
rikardoflamingo t1_ir3ukb1 wrote
Absolutely!
Look at the downvotes I’m getting.
None so blind as those that won’t see.
ecmcn t1_ir3xh0s wrote
Back when Apple was using their original plug for the iPhone I really wanted something better. Then when I had an Android with micro USB I really wanted something better. I’m fine with Lightning and USB-C now, and maybe USB-C will get us through the next however many years before the EU updates their requirements, but history has shown that the simple little plugs can indeed be improved upon.
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Silver_gobo t1_ir4bsnd wrote
Apple has the majority share of the cell phone market in America. There’s more people here that would be inconvenienced by this knew law than would be otherwise.
Ftdffdfdrdd t1_ir4d80v wrote
>wireless charger
is also a charger
EMPulseKC t1_ir4ht4k wrote
Apple: "You can use the Apple FlashPad to charge your devices, or you can subscribe to our USB-C port unlock feature for €50/month that will allow you to use the included standard port for charging your device at a much slower rate. Okay, European iPhone users, what do you choose?"
AlbertFishnets t1_ir4ixev wrote
I personally welcome our USB-C overlords. USB-C is a great standard with lots of head room for increased amperage over the same connector, when we get everyone caught up to the current version.
I really hope Apple will just get over it and focus on making stuff that plays with others for a change.
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zapho300 t1_ir4m4kw wrote
*charging cable. All chargers work with all phones.
GiantFlimsyMicrowave t1_ir4nn61 wrote
Speak for yourself
Aceticon t1_ir4o1wl wrote
Again the sepukku metaphor applies: they've considered it like somebody considers openning their guts with a sword when their cough gets too much and their fever a little high due to flu - maybe a fleeting idea that passed through a person's mind and was quickly dismissed, leaving behind nothing but a slight awkward feeling for having even thought about it.
Raymoundgh t1_ir4patc wrote
Block sales of iPhone in EU. EU should also pass a law blocking charging EU citizens significantly more than the US.
Aceticon t1_ir4pdnp wrote
EU regulator: "This product is not Compliant and cannot be sold in the EU. Any devices already on sale must be removed from sale. Here's a fine based on Apple's Worldwide Revenue for having hidden this built-in charge limitation mechanism in their application for the CE mark".
(And possibly whomever decided to hide such a mechanism in their application for compliance would, separatelly and as an individual, be charged with the crime of Fraud).
The best that Apple would be able to do here is appeal it all to the highest courts of the EU, were they would loose and meanwhile their phone would be blocked from sale in the 2nd largest market of the World.
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GiantFlimsyMicrowave t1_ir4qt5s wrote
This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read
cjeam t1_ir4rl7u wrote
It didn't fail exactly. That effort is what led to most manufacturers using micro usb for years, providing mostly standardised charging compared to what was occuring before. The advice allowed them to upgrade to usb-c when that came around though, this new piece of legislation has a similar mechanism to allow for upgrades though is slightly more unwieldy.
Contundo t1_ir4ubzn wrote
That don’t answer the question.
Contundo t1_ir4vgeb wrote
In my experience USB-C become loose very easily.
felixrocket7835 t1_ir4vlcx wrote
I've never experienced that, I have with broken micro usb but in general it sticks more than other cables.
OriginalCompetitive t1_ir4ybn2 wrote
I’m confused. The only difference between an iPhone charger and Android charger is the cord, right? The little block is the same either way. Why not just require every cord to have both adapters on the end?
JohnInDC t1_ir4z84c wrote
I hope you’ll forgive my skepticism, but I read “unwieldy“ as “unworkable”. Let’s get back together in 2034 and see if EU phones are still standardized on 2019 technology.
wobblybootson t1_ir523ta wrote
What a stupid idea. It’s going to take forever for the millions of people in Europe to wait until the charger is free.
Altruistic_Beat_9036 t1_ir5368y wrote
Stories like this is why I don't buy apple anymore. I once updated my device on the latest ios version and because of that it severely overheated and damaged the hardware. The guys at the Apple store said "yeah, we know that happens if you don't have the latest hardware and update your device. Wanna buy a new one?" My Mac book was less than two years old...
This never happened after windows updates.
dokks t1_ir5dd3l wrote
Curious, do you have any links that detail how the EU is a larger market than the US? Not a snark I'm genuinely interested and apparently my Google-fu isn't up to snuff.
flashingcurser t1_ir5ebqv wrote
They do, it's called wire. For other electrical engineering tips, subscribe to my channel.
MrWoodlawn t1_ir5h7k0 wrote
Indeed. It’s weird to watch so many fall victim to these new religions.
sterlingback t1_ir5kril wrote
Cell phone being key there. USB C charges my toothbrush, my cat fountain, ligths, shaker...
sterlingback t1_ir5ky2x wrote
I like how your previous comment led you to this conclusion.
sterlingback t1_ir5l8td wrote
Because USB C is not a product of a corporation
OriginalCompetitive t1_ir5mph9 wrote
So what? If different charging bricks were required, I could see the advantage of eliminating all that waste. But here it’s literally just an extra dongle on the end of a wire cord. Why make phone manufacturers redesign their charging interface instead of just making cord manufacturers include that extra bit?
I feel like I’m missing something here.
Klai8 t1_ir5qem7 wrote
Clearly everyone who downvoted me doesn’t understand that there was no symmetrical standard at the time…learn some critical thinking lol
[deleted] t1_ir5x5gd wrote
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sterlingback t1_ir5yc3s wrote
I also feel like you're missing something.
Literally every other company conformed to USB - C, even apple has USB-C on the other end of the cable and on the iPads.
This way you have a standard data/charging plug which is very helpful for everyday logistics, the extra dongle proposition is just absurd. Those are constantly breaking and I guess they have some loss because of it.
HopefulEuclid t1_ir5ykh6 wrote
US population: 329.5 million EU population: 447.7 million
dokks t1_ir65cpq wrote
Ok so you're talking only population size. Sure.
HopefulEuclid t1_ir68n54 wrote
When comparing developed nations for simple consumer products there's not really any other factor. For non-consumer industries or specialty products like firearms there'd be other considerations, but phones are basically sold everywhere. I'm sure if China made the same charging connector demand of Apple they'd comply.
psychocopter t1_ir6fy5v wrote
Nah, wireless should be an included option, not the only option. Have you ever used your phone while it was charging? An actual cable makes that much easier. Mag safe is another proprietary charging method that nothing outside of apples ecosystem uses. Also how are usb c standards fucked up? Are you talking about usb in general with gen 1, 2, 3.1 gen 1, 3.1 gen 2, and thunderbolt? You do know that magsafe also uses usb right?
OriginalCompetitive t1_ir6wt2z wrote
Dongle might be the wrong word, because what I’m talking about can’t really break.
My portable battery comes with a wire. One end of the wire is a standard USB port. The other end of the wire splits into three: one for iPhone, one for standard USB, and one other. Wires like this are available in any gas station and cost may $5-10 bucks.
Landmen t1_ir7rswu wrote
I can't just buy a cable that provides me the fastest possible charging speed plus data transfer without doing a ton of research. That's my problem with USB c. Then there is the issue compatible chargers.
psychocopter t1_ir8xwr1 wrote
Yes you can, you're only considering an apple branded magsafe charger when third party versions exist that require you to do the same research(its usb c to magsafe, even if the magsafe connector is standardized the rest of the cable and usb c connector may not be). The same goes with lightning. That would be like considering samsung usb c chargers as the one and only cable you can buy. These aren't really problems that actually exist, you can very easily find a high speed reputable type c charger, if Apple is forced to support type c then you'd also be able to just buy apple's type c cable if you dont trust another brand. My problem with lightning is that only iphones use them, the ipad, MacBook, etc use type c, it works on nothing else so it becomes ewasye should you switch to a different phone(the longer they force lightning the more e-waste is produced). On top of it lightning is a worse cable than type c, it cannot support the power delivery and data transfer that type c can, its just overall a worse cable. Apple switching to type c doesn't make an iPhone less apple, it just makes it a better device with a cable that can be used for more than one device.
creamy_cucumber t1_irbbwhq wrote
Excerpt from the EU directive:
>Hand-held mobile phones, tablets, digital cameras, headphones, headsets, handheld videogame consoles and portable speakers, in so far as they are capable of being recharged via wired charging, shall:
> (a) be equipped with the USB Type-C receptacle, as described in the standard EN IEC 62680-1-3:2021 ‘Universal serial bus interfaces for data and power - Part 1-3: Common components - USB Type-CTM Cable and Connector Specification’, which should remain accessible and operational at all times;
You can bypass the usb-c requirement by removing wired charging all together.
Aceticon t1_irc3t2u wrote
Elsewhere:
"This paragraph requires items of radio equipment, listed in a new Annex (Part I) added by the proposal, to comply with the charging interface and charging communication protocol described in that new Annex."
There's also a whole bit about the Comission giving itself powers to change the rules for devices which are not charged wirelessly.
You can't just read one bit of a proposal for ammendment without the context of the Directive 2014/53/EU which is the one being ammended and think you found some kind of loophole that nobody else saw.
I mean, you can, but that's just slightly megalomaniac fantasising.
If Apple does try to see if they can go around, I'm sure the courts will be happy to deliberate on whether they are compliant with the ammended Directive 2014/53/EU as whole or not, all the while Apple's phones are blocked from sale in the EU (the way compliance is designed for the Single Market is not having the supplier getting to sell their products whilst its compliance is in dispute as that would open a massive backdoor for the sale of knowingly non-compliant devices during the time it took for things to go through court in the end they would just stop selling having pocketed the money in the meanwhile and start it all over again with a new product).
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Gauth1er t1_iro6y9y wrote
Which willl lead into innovation in batterie technologie. Exactly the opposite of what Apple said : "preventing innovation".
Bensemus t1_is7rprc wrote
Apple still includes a cable. They don't include the brick. The EU is looking to make this law too to reduce on e-waste.
Bensemus t1_is7rzl4 wrote
You are being downvoted by idiots. You can use any USB charger with an iPhone. I use generic ones and Samsung ones as well as Apple ones. They are all just a USB port which is an open standard. You do need to use a lighting CABLE. This is a different thing than the wall connector and technically none are chargers. The charger is built into the phone.
Bensemus t1_is7sjvy wrote
You have a basic lack of understanding. Apple does spec the cable but you are allowed to use third party ones. I have a few third party cables and all of them work. The brick is completely open. Apple has no control over what brick you use.
The new rule the EU is proposing would prohibit Apple from restricting functionality to only approved cables. They would have to work with any valid cables that adhere to the USB and Type-C spec.
Stop creating bogymen to then get angry at them. Apple already uses Type-C on Macs and iPads. They've literally shown what it would look like and people still complain about fake stuff.
Bensemus t1_is7sqt9 wrote
It's easier to make stuff up about Apple and bash that.
shawntw77 t1_is7tj6y wrote
I should have worded it better. More accurately it'd be certain third party cables no longer work. Only cables certified by apple will function. I can say this with absolute certainty because of my own past experience with it.
Thank you for also answering my question in the second part.
WallStreetDoesntBet OP t1_ir13tdz wrote
Apple has in the past warned that the proposal would hurt innovation and create waste.
The change had been discussed for years and was prompted by complaints from iPhone and Android users about having to switch to different chargers for their devices.
The vote confirms an earlier agreement among EU institutions and will make USB-C connectors used by Android-based devices the EU standard, forcing Apple to change its charging port for its devices.