Submitted by lughnasadh t3_zbmall in Futurology
Honestly, depending on what they mean by transcranial, I wonder if it just mimics human touch and belonging. If you think about it, our society doesn’t touch the scalp very much. But it’s remarkably sensitive to it.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/lughnasadh:
Submission Statement
The downside to this is that no one is sure what the mechanism is, and they also don't know how long the effect lasts. Clearly, if this is to become a useful therapy then answers will be needed there.
Low-level laser therapy is a field of medicine with some controversy. It's currently being used in many applications where some people feel there is inadequate evidence for its uses. Still, this research seems to suggest there may be future useful applications for it.
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/zbmall/researchers_claim_a_human_trial_with_90_people/iyrvj08/
> Clearly, if this is to become a useful therapy then answers will be needed there.
Nope. The mechanism by which antidepressants work is unknown, but still used in therapy.
> It's thought that antidepressants work by increasing neurotransmitters. These are chemicals in the brain like serotonin and noradrenaline. They can improve mood and emotion, although this process isn't fully understood. Increasing levels of neurotransmitters can also disrupt pain signals sent by nerves.
>>I wonder if it just mimics human touch and belonging.
Apparently this works at some specific wavelengths and not others.
That would suggest to me, the mechanism is some transfer of energy from the laser to specific molecules in brain cells. The article mentions this, and suggests those molecules may be in astrocytes, a type of cell that seem to have a role in supplying energy to other cells.
We don’t even fully understand how acetaminophen/Tylenol works lol.
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As someone that has had ADHD for as long as I can remember (since at least 2nd grade). If a meaningful treatment comes from this, I will be grateful.
Yeah, or maybe heat and increased blood flow. Insensate vibration could be another way. Kinda cool, though. Hope it pans out in bigger studies.
This! I set money aside every month to get a massage to move my lymphatic system and overall stress management. When the massage therapist massages my scalp i feel such a wave of relief and release.
Sounds like electro shock therapy, medieval level trials with space age tech😂
Heres my 2 cents. You can take it or leave it.
The entire universe and everything in it is vibrating. The frequency of the laser is harmonic with the human body’s frequency.
I know this is true, and let me explain to you by first starting with frequency.
Frequency is interchangeable. As such: light, sounds, and emotions can all be expressed on a equivalent frequency scale. I.e. 120hz is a color on the electromagnetic scale (idrk just spitballing), 120hz is a sound pitch thats F# (idrk just spitballing) and also, when you hear or see that frequency, it makes you feel X.
This is why many fast food restaurants use red and yellow, many modern movies resort to an increasing pitch sound to simulate tension (sadly, as previously movies used acting to do that, but i digress).
Now we are well aware of this, and we even have science fair experiments on it. Theres both a visual and audio version. Both involve planting seeds and exposing them to different colors (red, green, blue, etc) or music (classic, country, rock, etc) and comparing their growth.
They do indeed affect growth.
At a deeper level, we are 70% water, and so the frequency that is most harmonic with water would be most beneficial to us.
Also, frequency creates form, as if you put sand on a speaker, each frequency will create its own shapes. This could hold key to the mechanism behind whats occuring
Edit: sound = form video
light affecting growth in plants video
No reason to think this wouldnt apply to us as well
Adhd here with a concussion. I def want this
There will be a line of professional athletes around the block.
Or anesthesia for that matter
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Wow really
I thought we* recently figured that one out.
*not me
There is a consumer product hitting the market
That doesn't do laser therapy though does it?
Transdcranial Photobiomodulation
Wait is there some connection I haven’t heard of with concussions and adhd? I’ve had quite a few in my lifetime
It does sounds like that. But if it works it works.
No I've had adhd since i was a kid. Concussions/ tbi makes focus headaches and inattention worse though
Ahh i didn't see that thanks
Absolutely hilarious that you have this whole nonsensical thought process based on frequency, and your example of a “color” on the EM “scale” (the word you’re looking for is spectrum) is 120hz. Visible red light is about 430 trillion Hz… cracking me up that you said one hundred and twenty lol. You’re on the right order of magnitude on sound.
Re: planting seeds - the light experiments make perfect intuitive sense as photosynthesis is deeply sensitive to EM frequency. The sound experiments are interesting and less intuitive but the gist of it is that sound is a mechanical stimulus.
Your claim that the frequency that is most harmonic with water is ridiculous in the way you are presenting it, but that said, the wavelength of the laser used was critical in the results observed. But literally nothing to do with the “harmonic frequency” of water.
For those interested, check out r/photobiomodulation, and r/redlighttherapy.
Also there is an enormous collection of research on this Google doc: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJCBes3VSCJjiVO4XI0tIR0rbMBj08/htmlview#gid=0
Anything that involves lasers and the brain CANNOT be a good thing.
You are on the right track. Look into PBM in red and NIR frequencies e.g. 620, 679, 760, 810, and 830, and their interaction with Complex 4/ Cytochrome Oxidase C in mitochondrial electron transport chain.
Electro shock therapy is effective despite the medieval reputation.
What if they're ill-tempered sharks?
Makes sense. For treatment resistant HPA axis dysfunction and severe depression, could be an interesting clinical trial if administered over a short period of time. And closely monitored.
That’s like trepanation, it relieves the pressure, doesn’t mean it is the solution. Just cuse u see some positive side effects doesn’t prove anything, there needs to be a lot more research before this is an actual viable method. Very skeptical
Yes, that's why I said "if".
I'm with you on the injury front, not knowing what you have until it's gone is gutting.
No one knows how it works or how long it lasts? I read this book in school, it's called Flowers for Algernon and it's a real tear-jerker.
You know, I have one simple request. And that is to have sharks with frickin' laser beams attached to their heads! Now evidently my cycloptic colleague informs me that that cannot be done. Ah, would you remind me what I pay you people for, honestly? Throw me a bone here! What do we have?
I can confirm this is true. I'm a surgical neurophysiologist who published a book detailing the science and stories of (tPBM), in addition to three other brain health-boosting technologies. Within this book called Neuro Alchemy is an entire chapter dedicated to discussing the remarkable research and stories about photobiomodulation. I hope you will all find this book enjoyable to read ! https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CWD65TV
As someone with epilepsy, you would think that I would be so on board to be able to zap some memory space back in there. Like holy shit that would be awesome!
HOWEVER, no way. This, Elon's stupid microchip idea.. we are so far away from comprehending the brain. A lot of people want to write off their poor memory skills on adhd. I get that, believe me. It takes training, practice, and diligence to build memory skills. People just want to cut corners and zap the brain?
Ever have a seizure before?
Anesthesiologist here.
Yes and no. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of drugs that can be used to induce anesthesia. All of the common intravenous drugs that I can think of have well-studied mechanisms of action that at least mostly explain their effects. The volatile anesthetics (ie those that are vaporized and inhaled) are not as well understood. Volatile anesthetics were also the first meds used to induce surgical anesthesia (ether), so it's somewhat surprising they have eluded our understanding for so long. We know a lot about the effects these drugs have on different organ systems, and there are some studies that shed light on different mechanistic elements, but overall their mechanism remains controversial and unclear
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>Heres my 2 cents. You can take it or leave it.
Every rational person should leave it
ADHD here with brain fog from fibro. If this turns out to work, and becomes widely available, I am going to bawl my eyes out. I hate the memory issues, I hate forgetting what I'm doing in the middle of things, the time blindness that comes with ADHD, the fact I have to have 3 things going on at once just to keep my brain quiet...This would be an actual life-changer.
Fuck yes! Omg. To remember, that I need to remember something is fucking annoying and impossible. I forget to remember.
Hmmm. HMMMM. I've had like 4 or 5 concussions... Is there a study or article related u could point me to?
I have ADHD and have unbelievable memory. I just have to be focused on it to remember it :)
On treatment? Ill have to go dig up my research. I take lions mane, glutathione, lift weights, cbd for sleep, fish oil and nac. This has benefited be greatly oh adderal for add. Fasting too helps with focus , attention and healing
Live your best life!
Right? Sign me up!!!
Yep, ADHD and SDAM here and I would do unspeakable things to get some of my memory capacity back.
Look into the research on neurofeedback and thank me later. There are home units you can buy.
You can disagree without calling anyone sane or insane. Whats worse, you really dont even know why you disagree, just want to fit in and seem cool.
When the science catches up and im correct, youll stupidly accept it now that science says so.
No, actually I have a graduate degree in thermodynamics which is quite literally the study of atomic vibrations. So I'm disagreeing on the basis that everything you said is completely at odds with what I've learned and applied.
If the scientific consensus is that you are correct, I will beleive it because of the inherent benefits of the scientific method: transparency, reproducibility, and peer critique. Not just because some scientist says so. Please do some research on the hierarchy of evidence.
But you're right, I will change it to "rational". I shouldn't be stigmatizing
My idea is still rational. I explaine the rationale with evidence. You said vibration, im talking frequency. Not exactly the same thing.
Its iust so jarring you reflexive dismiss it, taking a true understanding of reality for granted under assumptions.
Like I said, you can disagree and explain why, but your belief or lack thereof does not invalidate that this occurs in reality, and businesses use it to much success.
YOU said vibrations, my guy. And if it isn't the frequency of vibrations that you're talking about, then what is it the frequency of? Especially the "harmonic frequency of water" part
Enlighten me rational science man
You keep doing edits after I reply.
But you realize the the frequency "most harmonic" to water is literally how a microwave cooks food, right? I'm dismissing it because people like you would microwave people to death if you could carry out your experiments.
I'm not disagree with the actual science of color and emotion. My wife is a neuropsychologist and took a whole class on vision and neuroscience. That has empirical evidence.
I'm disagreeing with someone slapping a bunch of work together to form some half-baked "unified theory of frequency" or some shit lol
The fact that you consider yourself to have a "true understanding of reality" is by far the most jarring part.
Any from Polk High? Heard they had a stellar QB a while back
I’m calling horse shit on this one. non invasive? Umm what about the big plate of bone between the outside world and the brain? Without some more information, this sounds like Trump suggesting treating covid-19 with bright lights or bleach.
This other guy said “no” because he’s always had it, but there is a connection lol Brain trauma can lead to secondary adhd, basically all the symptoms of adhd as a result of a TBI. If you’re interested look it up!
I'll take this with a grain of salt until the sample size increases from 90 people to a hell of a lot more. 90 people isn't enough for me to be confident in an experimental treatment.
Any recommendations? I am thankful that you even mentioned that, but literally found 60 products with my first search.
Like > NeoRhythm - The OmniPEMF headset for performance improvement and targeted stress reduction
Sounds good, but is it?
That's not the same. The mechanism is the change in neurotransmitters. The interactions may be less known, but the mechanism is well known as one that inhibitd reuptake of serotonin, at least for SSRIs. It's in the name
The one I used to use was from brain-trainer.com. I don’t know the one you mentioned but could be good.
Thanks for the doc page!
I couldn’t agree more . As someone with severe ADHD I need something better than Adderall. I feel sometimes like I live in a haze. Something like this, if it could help even in the least bit, would be life altering for me. How do I get into this trial?
I would love to hear more specifics on what regimen you’re following. I’ve had many concussions over many decades and I feel like I can actually perceive my current cognitive loss. Thanks.
My god! This post feels like I’m writing it. I can’t believe all the people posting in here who are like me. I feel some form of relief knowing there’s all these people with these struggles out there like me. I don’t feel people really believe in the disorder when you tell them you have it. Like it’s some made up thing you use to as an excuse for when you forget or misplace things.
If they can trigger certain cells, then couldn’t technology be used to find a frequency that could harm or affect cancer cells?
Brain trauma can cause ADHD.
Uh, hey science people, when you run across this thread and find willing volunteers, please add my name to the list for the exact same reason stated above. Grade school was hell, a mental scar upon my person, largely in part due to the ADD mental fog. (That's right, I said it, I was diagnosed before it turned into ADHD)
laser light therapy has been shown to have many benefits if you can figure out the right density and wavelength for the region you are trying to impact.
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Yes, concussions can cause adhd like symptoms in people without the neurological disorder, and they can make adhd much worse for those who have it. But if you get adhd like symptoms from a concussion you can't typically treat it the same as if you just have adhd.
I've read about doctors using ultra sound to break up tumors.
Who here has done this? I’m looking for anecdotal stories. How much was your brain laser dohickey, what have you noticed, etc.
I don't forget things with my adhd... I just get excited to start something else.... a move on fast!!!
I'll try to teasing tinker with more info. Start with glutathione injections of you can. Use liposomal glutathione/ n acetyl glutathione. 1-2 grams daily. Sleep like it's your job. I'll try to render to update my content with my regimen
I see how this could help ADHD I wonder if would help with dyslexia as well?
Call me Laserface!
>Ever have a seizure before?
Ever seen what deep brain stimulators have been doing for Parkinson's patients for the last 2 decades or so?
The biggest problem with Neuralink is that all the marketing and attention goes to a company that isn't particularly remarkable. It's a very exciting field that can make huge improvements to patient quality of life. Neuralink is not the company to pay attention to - look into what the academic labs are doing.
Equating targeted stimulation protocols to having a seizure reeks of ignorance of the field. Especially when brain stimulation has been an approved treatment strategy for Parkinson's and Essential Tremors for, at least 2 decades now.
Parkinson's and epilepsy are two different things.
I'm more worried about it causing damage than effectiveness
targeted electrical/magnetic stimulation and seizures are also two different things.
You're the one equating BCIs with cutting corners, not me.
Amazing grace!
Yes, they are. good job.
Care to explain why you were trying to equate them then?
Thanks for the link. I'd sure like to give it a try before buying. If it really works as advertised I'd gladly shell out the $1,200.
Bonks is still bad, but if you already have NP it's a compounding interest rate deal.
I fucking hate ADHD I would do anything to get rid of it, I would do nearly anything at all…. I hate it and even with meds it still manages to ruin my life.
You mean the guy that scored 4 touchdowns in one game?
I could not agree more. I wonder what it would feel like to have average attention.
Hahaha. This was my reaction too. Reading these posts makes me think we are all one brain discovering ourself. Sad and broken and happy and hopeful. This kind of breakthrough is too exciting for me to believe at present. I've come to terms with the way that I am and the daily struggle required. I'll try to carve room for a tiny bit of cautious optimism amid the muddle
‚‘brain fog from fibro‘ Would you mind explaining that further ?
Can you explain the "3 things going on at once bit"? I never got diagnosed with ADHD but I can relate to your post so much that I'm wondering if I need to get tested!
Why don't you just upload your Consciousness into a robot that doesn't have these problems
what's your moderation limit on becoming a basic cyborg
I am in no way insulting or degrading people with ailments all I'm asking is if there's a limit to how much robotic technology you'll allow to intervene and overtake your god-given normality
If you're allegedly so miserable that you're willing to accept a cyborg lifestyle[my words not yours]
Oh this one operation doesn't make you feel like you're basically a transhuman machine?
my whole point of this post was to ask if there is a limit at all
How many robotic improvements should we just add on to a human and how many robotic improvements can we say are on a human but they are still human
This is good for several things. Iirc there have been studies showing memory loss as a long term side effect of Covid so this therapy could prove incredibly valuable long term
Possibly the laser activated neurons that has high fear or pleasure thus there is a change in fear levels, causing stronger memory in order to avoid the imagined fear or to make the imagined hope come true.
Using shorter wavelength has no effect since it cannot penetrate the skull, while using laser on the other side has less chance to activate any high pleasure or fear neuron since right handed people will have more intense memories associated with their right hand and in turn, the neurons are formed there.
So if such is correct, by having the participants be all left handed, the laser should have no effect on the right prefrontal cortex.
Yeah, how long it lasts and side effects are very important to know.
ADHD with 6+ concussions from bikes snowboarding and motorcycles...
Have you tried mushroom supplements? I had a stroke something like 5 years ago, and had brain fog and lethargy, and I took a stack of lionsmane mushroom, cordyceps, reishi, turkey tail and Chaga. These helped me regain my ability to think "in a straight line" and respond a hell of a lot easier to questions etc. I also microdosed psychedelic mushrooms as well during this period and believe it helped.
I would want to know more about how exactly this is supposed to work.
You can't know anything about side-effects, if you have no idea where the effects are supposed to come from.
I assume it is something more than threatening to laser people's brains again unless they do better on memory tests.
I too have a squirrel for a brain and this was my first thought as well. Sign me the fuck up for some brain lasers.
Why laser light, Why not just sit in the sun without hat?
Unfortunately they don't help with adhd. Our brains are actually formed differently from normal brains and have some specific chemical deficits which shrooms can't supplement.
Our brains are constantly in overdrive trying to scrape up the dopamine and noroepinephrine which we can't produce or regulate like normal brains. So we need a lot of extra stimulation. That can mean trying to do a bunch of things all at once, or watching a show while playing a video game and talking to someone, using a fidget toy while engaged in other things, etc.
It can also mean taking hours to fall asleep because your brain can't stop. It can mean being super distracted because whatever you're doing isn't stimulating enough (with adhd most things aren't because our brain lacks the necessary chemicals to generate that feedback) so your brain keeps going on a little adventure. When we do find something that interests us enough and provides that extra stimulation, novelty, etc we need to get those chemicals, we can become hyperfocused and obsessed. My mom thought I was deaf and got my hearing tested when I was 6 or 7 because I'd just be gone when I was in that mode. Wouldn't hear a word she said. It's common for us to go through hobbies constantly because we get obsessed for a short period, then the novelty wears off, and we can't get interested again, leading to one form of ADHD tax where we waste money on tons of supplies and tools, then a month later forget about them and never touch them again.
It also causes issues with working memory and short term memory, impulse control and executive function (either you can't stop yourself or no matter how hard you try you can't make yourself do something). ADHD can be debilitating. I was a disaster before I got help.
I got diagnosed at 32. I didn't ever consider it, because I didn't know enough about it, until a friend who had a degree in early childhood education recognized it and suggested I look into it. Once I read more into it it made sense, and especially once i went over all my old school records and my symptom history with the specialist. Getting diagnosis, therapy, and meds completely turned my life around.
It's worth at least looking into if you think you might have it.
PS I looked at Neorhythm and it looks ok, but it's very limited, as it only records EEG on one area of the brain, similar to the Muse device. Unlike the Muse, since the Neorhythm isn't on Amazon, it doesn't have any reviews. In neurofeedback, the goal is to look at 19 channels of EEG to see which area of your brain is imbalanced, and then train that area of the brain accordingly. In ADD/ADHD, it is often corrected at the top of the head using a point called Cz, but it could be due to other reasons, such as too much slow wave activity at the front left of the head and not enough fast wave (required for activation/focus). The point is without a scan of the whole brain you won't know.
If you want to read a good book on the topic, check out Symphony in the Brain.
Laser light (or light from some LEDs) is emitted at a specific wavelength. The sun emits light at all (well, many different) wavelengths. For this effect to work:
Lasers and LEDs are a way of getting to those two goals. Other light emitters may work as well but are harder to control (e.g. the sun).
> r/redlighttherapy.
ima put mine in my head now see how it goes
Report back, ty.
Bundy, Al Bundy. Legend!
It will kill married men as the ability to forget the reason for the pain is survival skill.
Fibromyalgia causes "brain fog": you have a hard time focusing and your memory is unreliable. You find ways to cope but it never completely goes away.
Fibromyalgia also causes fatigue and outright pain, which can become unbearable if not medicated.
Thanks! I didn‘t know that and I wasn‘t sure Fybriomyalgia was meant with „fibro“ (+ made me listen up). thing is, I believe that I‘ve got fibro. Now even more… It‘s complicated bc on top of that and a few other things I was going through a burnout phase for the last 9 months.
My ‚medication‘ is Buprenorphine for now but I think I need to see a doctor again…
For sure, it's not a diagnosis that's handed out lightly.
I definitely recommend seeing a doctor once in a while, as fibromyalgia sufferers respond differently to the variety of appropriate medication, and can even respond differently as years go by. Getting the right medication is life-changing.
Got it. It‘s really weird when you‘re unwell all the time with random aches and all that. On top the dizzyness and all. I think I‘ve left 20% of my brain capacity on the way along so far. Sidenote: have tried microdosing psychedelics, not only for the contentration side of things.
Which category of meds are you talking about explicitly? From painkillers to anti inflammatory meds, there is a broad variety.
Broad variety, as you say, and it depends on what's available/legal and what insurance covers. But I'm no medical specialist, I simply helped someone close cope through every step, from the initial confusion at their body, through the lengthy misdiagnoses, and trying different medication over years. This summer they finally found a great fit, enough to prompt the occasional spontaneous "I'm feeling so well", when they realize that at times all symptoms are gone.
I wish it can happen to you.
Thanks for your feedback and being a genuinely great human being :)
Medical system in my country was great once but did suffer of the covid crisis a lot.
One last question (just if you know) Which kind of med school did the physician practice who diagnosed your friend correctly? Neurology?
They're asleep right now, but that I remember, they did have to meet a specialist, either a neurologist or a rheumatologist.
Perfect, I use psychedelics to grow neuron connections and then I use this to increase my working memory. Then when winter comes around I can kill them all with alcohol.
/u/Best-Responsibility9, I've recently begun delving into tDCS and tACS, and also very interested in the Vielight but I can't justify the money for that yet. I'm making an effort to understand how these three approaches compare to what's been found at Stanford and led to developing the SAINT protocol. Considering that Dr. Nolan Williams team found that most durable effect comes from short, repeated (successively over a 3-day period) TMS on the left DLPFC, specifically targeting the anterior cingulate. It would seem to a layperson that tDCS is the sledgehammer and r-tMS is the scalpel. Of the home-use options, none of the current tech can target that spot other than TMS, yet still seem to be effective. My question is do you think tDCS/tACS is as effective as tPBM? Would you guess it's 50% as effective? 95% as effective?
lughnasadh OP t1_iyrvj08 wrote
Submission Statement
The downside to this is that no one is sure what the mechanism is, and they also don't know how long the effect lasts. Clearly, if this is to become a useful therapy then answers will be needed there.
Low-level laser therapy is a field of medicine with some controversy. It's currently being used in many applications where some people feel there is inadequate evidence for its uses. Still, this research seems to suggest there may be future useful applications for it.