Submitted by seascot t3_112c0e4 in UpliftingNews
Comments
Merv71 t1_j8j9pgg wrote
Could = Wont
surfingNerd t1_j8jbkpd wrote
$ (EV + electricity ) is lower than $ (ice car + gasoline) already, by a lot. That doesn't include maintenance.
bottleboy8 t1_j8jc0kn wrote
The batteries in my last cell phone lasted 5 years before they couldn't be charged anymore. Had to get a new phone.
My last gas car lasted 23 years.
DankVectorz t1_j8jduml wrote
Not because EV’s are getting cheaper, but because ICE cars are just getting more expensive
wishyouwouldread t1_j8jdxt4 wrote
Automotive and Oil companies have created the problem. To bad we can't make them fix it.
johndoe73684168 t1_j8jdzp2 wrote
Related, there have been breakthroughs with lithium-air batteries which will reach energy density similar to gas.
bingold49 t1_j8jf3os wrote
By a lot? The average EV price is 66k while the average ICE vehicle is 44k. Even at 50 bucks a week in gas it would take 10 years to make up the difference
[deleted] t1_j8jgotq wrote
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LilyWhitesN17 t1_j8jiejv wrote
I'm not anti-EV, but the basic math doesn't add up, and as soon as you point out something like this, you're a shill for big oil. Looking at a few models, Hybrid vs. EV of the same vehicle, there is still a $10K difference in price.
BigCountry76 t1_j8jivaw wrote
Pretty sure the battery cells and battery management system is an EV is a bit more advanced than your phone.
There are tons of EVs with well over 100k mile and 90%+ of the original range.
bingold49 t1_j8jk7v6 wrote
The bottom line is that it is still a bit of a luxury and for many people out of the question just because of where they live and not having as much infrastructure in place. As time goes on, that may change as EVs and the infrastructure become more prevalent but we aren't there yet. The question I have is whether a synthetic fuel of some sort (especially something existing cars can easily be converted to) come to market prior to a full move to EV.
videodromejockey t1_j8jn00n wrote
It’s not just gas. Gas, oil, brakes and rotors(due to regenerative/one pedal braking, electrics don’t consume them as aggressively), spark plugs and coil packs, transmission fluid, differential fluid for some AWD models, diesel DEF fluid. There are a ton of consumables in gas/diesel cars. Even in my fairly low maintenance car I’ll spend about $2000 in consumables over a five year period, even before gas enters the picture.
And that’s ignoring the potential failure of gas/diesel components that don’t exist on electric cars. Turbos, exhaust systems, high and low pressure fuel pumps, the many many air/fuel sensors involved in running a car like MAP, MAF, IAT sensors, injectors, water pumps, these are all non-wear items that commonly fail and can represent hundreds or thousands in repairs. Now granted electric cars have their own unique components - but not nearly as many as gas cars.
bottleboy8 t1_j8jqm1o wrote
> Pretty sure the battery cells and battery management system is an EV is a bit more advanced than your phone.
Same lithium ion batteries. And how you use and charge the batteries matters. As well as hot and cold extreme weather.
>90%+ of the original range.
Exactly. The batteries degrade quickly. They may not completely fail, but after the first charge they start degrading. You'll lose 10% of the charge capacity and range of the vehicle in the first two years.
Replacing the batteries is extremely expensive. And can cost up to $20k.
BigCountry76 t1_j8jsq6g wrote
You definitely don't lose 10% range in two years and the battery chemistry and quality is not the same as a phone.
But you clearly have your mind made up to ignore facts so no point in debating with you.
surfingNerd t1_j8jxiqn wrote
So, you are comparing a luxury EV price, vs an average ICE-car?
Yes, if you are already buying a car, of similar price as an EV, get the EV. Has cars will start to deprecate much more, when you see gas stations and mechanics shops closing.
bingold49 t1_j8k0xm8 wrote
If you're a buying a brand new vehicle, it comes with a warranty that's going to cover much of that, tack on 150 a year in oil changes maybe
Bearman71 t1_j8k108k wrote
Average vehicle cost is a bit off though. There's a number of evs out there for less than 66k you can buy the 35-45k electric vehicle if you want.
bingold49 t1_j8k11dt wrote
No I'm comparing the average of each type of vehicle
bingold49 t1_j8k18xt wrote
You can also roll the dice on needing a 15k dollar battery replacement, we are talking new purchase vehicles in this article
videodromejockey t1_j8k1aae wrote
For three years, maybe. But that hardly matters because if you buy new you’re eating shit on depreciation. Warranties also do not include maintenance items, so all your consumables as already mentioned.
Bearman71 t1_j8k1cx8 wrote
That's not even close to being part of the discussion, but I also don't keep cars past their warranty period.
bingold49 t1_j8k1zxk wrote
Ok, we are still talking average price, every new ice vehicle doesn't start at 44k
Bearman71 t1_j8k2j1s wrote
Ice cars also don't have a tesla that registered every trim line of the model s as a different car fucking up the averages.
bingold49 t1_j8k3rze wrote
But they also don't have 15k Nissan sentras on the other side of that
Bearman71 t1_j8k4f71 wrote
They do have a 26k leaf so electric vehicles are still affordable, sure. You're not buying a tesla loaded with the big fuck off battery, 4 motors, super cruise, and every other option, but affordable options are out there if you want one.
Uninvited_Goose t1_j8k8kab wrote
Don't worry, Their Environmental impact is about the same.
MasteroChieftan t1_j8kivz2 wrote
If Toyota had balls they would release a fully electric Corolla with 300 mi range.
MasteroChieftan t1_j8kizaf wrote
It's not. An electric car does not burn oil once it is produced.
SilverNicktail t1_j8kjtnr wrote
Citation: Anus
SilverNicktail t1_j8kjvlo wrote
Not even close.
SilverNicktail t1_j8kjxlo wrote
The Japanese manufacturers have in general been dragging their feet on EVs, unfortunately.
[deleted] t1_j8kvlkg wrote
Ok-Development8745 t1_j8kvowe wrote
Lol and 15k$ to replace one too.
Ok-Development8745 t1_j8kvr6f wrote
Battery technology hasn’t changed.
samsounder t1_j8ky2cc wrote
Will to!
jimdandy19 t1_j8ky3qp wrote
I've had an EV for less than a year, and I've already seen so many more models become available and more advertising. I haven't seen a whole lot of new charging infrastructure, though. There's going to be a lot of frustrated people out there if sales pick up rapidly.
samsounder t1_j8ky64n wrote
This is just wrong. Also, the subs rules are here for a reason.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l3868 wrote
This is an example of how to use statistics incorrectly. You are comparing a restricted market that was originally targeted more towards the luxury market with initial offerings to a highly competitive market loaded with tons of low-end models.
Tesla literally made up 2/3 of the market for EVs. That's going to give a ridiculously skewed metric when trying to compare against the broad ICE market.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l45jk wrote
No, you are disingenuously comparing two dissimilar markets and misapplying statistics to try and validate your argument.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l4dru wrote
What are you talking about? Battery packs/drive train are warrantied for just as long, if not longer, than ICE engines.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l4gzk wrote
Every new EV doesn't start at 66k either. What's your point?
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l4vpb wrote
How long has ICE technology been around in mass production?
You really are hell-bent on comparing apples to oranges. EV prices continue to drop. There are several options for EVs in the mid $20K range. Add in the fact that EVs require a fraction of the maintenance and that $10K or so price difference starts looking pretty small.
videodromejockey t1_j8l5pwo wrote
If you think replacing EV batteries is common, you're drinking the oil koolaid. Current generation EV batteries will last the lifetime of the car, with many manufacturers having battery warranties in the 150k mile range. There isn't a single ICE car company on the planet warrantying their engines for 150k miles.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8l9jlj wrote
Citation: Math
Chevy Bolt: $26K
Comparative ICE: $26K
Average commute: 41 miles a day.
EV
Average price of electricity: $0.16/kwh
A typical EV will average around 4 miles per kwh.
Cost of commute per year EV: $426
Maintenance cost per mile for EV (according to FOEERE): $0.06
Maintenance cost per year EV: $640
Total EV Annual Cost: $1066
ICE
Average price gas: $3.41/gallon
Average MPG of car: 35 mpg
Cost of commute per year gas: $1038
Maintenance cost per mile gas (according to FOEERE): $0.10
Maintenance cost per year gas: $1066
Total ICE Annual Cost: $2104
​
The ICE on average costs about $1038 more per year than an EV. If you have solar, that gap widens even more.
Even without solar, if you swapped the ICE for a hybrid the EV is still cheaper by quite a bit.
Ineludible_Ruin t1_j8lbyea wrote
What EVs are readily available (outside of tesla) that are around the size of a normal car, civic, sentra, accord, camry... that are similar price to the ice versions I just named? (Maybe some of those have an ev version?)
muldervinscully t1_j8lfavo wrote
Japan is not known for making decisions quickly
muldervinscully t1_j8lfbzk wrote
Yeah you gotta be able to charge at home. Way cheaper too
Hotkoin t1_j8lfmfn wrote
Truly, we still use the voltaic pile even to this day. I drag my 300 kg mobile phone around with me and have to regularly swap out the vinegar soaked sheets of fabric to keep the screen on.
Ok-Development8745 t1_j8lfrsh wrote
You know what I mean. Of course I’m not being literal. We have made no significant advancements in battery technology in a long time.
Hotkoin t1_j8lghbc wrote
Quite a stretch of a statement there.
That's kinda like saying a smartphone using a lithium ion battery from 10 years ago is about as dense as a current smartphone lithium ion battery
Ok-Development8745 t1_j8lgmh1 wrote
The fact that we’re still using lithium ion jfc man just nvm you’re clearly just looking for a combative argument and I’m not trying to fight. Good nite
Hotkoin t1_j8lgmm2 wrote
Quite a stretch of a statement there.
That's kinda like saying a smartphone using a lithium ion battery from 10 years ago is about as dense as a current smartphone lithium ion battery
Hotkoin t1_j8lgrds wrote
Just because the current wave of batteries and batteries from 10 years ago are called lithium ion doesn't mean they're the same thing.
Kinda like saying rubber tires 100 years ago are the same as rubber tires now
Ok-Development8745 t1_j8lgsyu wrote
Ok boomer
Hotkoin t1_j8lguv2 wrote
OK Development
Antrophis t1_j8llvbd wrote
How much does it cost to install a charge station?
Antrophis t1_j8lm02j wrote
If you can get a home charger sure otherwise still a hard no.
[deleted] t1_j8lqlrl wrote
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WorBlux t1_j8ltr13 wrote
Calendar ageing will still get you. And 80% is more or less considered EOL for an automotive pack.
If you are hitting 100,000 mi in 3-4 years, EV's durability compares favorably with ICE.
If you are doing 4-5k miles/year, the ICE wins, because it goes 15-20 years before falling apart, and usually not one super-expensive component at once.
DavidHewlett t1_j8luqvp wrote
As someone who has worked for a Japanese company: holy shit is this true. “Fail fast, fail often” is a completely foreign concept to them.
PerpetualProtracting t1_j8lyvhu wrote
EVs can plug straight into a standard outlet. Unless you're driving huge distances daily you simply don't need a home fast charger.
zewn t1_j8m904o wrote
In South Africa, because we are so backward, EV's come with a huge extra tax. So we are screwed either way.
davidgrayPhotography t1_j8mdy3p wrote
Zero dollars if you use a standard wall charger. Otherwise between $1k and $2.5k Australian dollars for a decent charger.
The fuel savings would cover that reasonably quickly
tradtrad100 t1_j8mg9gq wrote
Could
landdon t1_j8mich0 wrote
I'm waiting on the Toyota car that is like a big leap for mileage cost. Maybe things are starting to even out.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8mjecs wrote
I have a Chevy Bolt myself, and I don't have a home charger. I just use the regular charger and plug it into a normal outlet.
If you're going to be driving for long distances on a regular basis then you'll want to consider a home charger if your place of work/destination does not have a charging station.
toadofsteel t1_j8mjl8s wrote
So once again, renters are fucked.
It's so much more expensive to be poor in this country.
Xyrus2000 t1_j8mk09i wrote
The Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Bolt are in that price range. There are a couple of others that get into that price range with incentives, but the usefulness of incentives depends on your taxes.
[deleted] t1_j8moytx wrote
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[deleted] t1_j8mp0k8 wrote
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Sword_Thain t1_j8mw3y5 wrote
I'd love my next vehicle to be an EV.
Difficulty: I am 6' 6" with bad knees
Maycrofy t1_j8n1h8m wrote
In the future, the climbing cost of individual vehicles made public transportation the most convenient form of moving.
Ineludible_Ruin t1_j8n2hwr wrote
The leaf has always seemed so small to me, though it is 10inches shorter than a civic. I don't get why they're so.... aesthetically unappealing. That's just an opinion though. Same for the chevy bolt. Those EVs and the prius have similar looks and hatchback... the Teslas look more like a normal car like the civic or accord or camry. Maybe there's a reason the others look like that. Aerodynamics while Tesla isn't quite that concerned about it?
Blargenth t1_j8na60q wrote
Oooooh! I saw a post yesterday that led me to believe the price of recharging an electric car was some how getting closer to fuel prices!
Antrophis t1_j8ndkgc wrote
Most apartments would still be SoL.
dentalgirl74 t1_j8okp6f wrote
Our level 2 charger (hardwired juice box) retailed for around $650 USD. We had a credit of over $300 from our energy provider’s online shop to help with the cost. Installation was done by a neighbor who is a union electrician for $200 in labor and $100 in materials.
Rheum42 t1_j8pxou8 wrote
And that's the part they forget to talk about. What about states that already have a failing electric grid?
ohiotechie t1_j8qbwop wrote
This is exactly what I wondered when I read the headline.
chemicalrefugee t1_j9cktp5 wrote
A huge number of people go their entire lives without buying a new car. They do this because they can't afford to buy a new car. All those people are going to be screwed.
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