nathansym t1_jb8ggxr wrote
I don't understand how this is in uplifting news? Cobalt mining is a blight on human history. Of course, one could say this is mainly driven by phones and other tech but I don't think, currently, a push in EV sales is uplifting.
ProtoplanetaryNebula t1_jb9iq11 wrote
The trend in EVs these days is to move to LFP, which is cobalt free.
Guess where cobalt will still be used in massive quantities? For refining petrol and diesel.
nathansym t1_jb9qt9e wrote
This is a great point.
I had no idea.
TheReverendCard t1_jb8ouh5 wrote
Most new EVs don't use cobalt. They use cobalt free LFP.
David_W_J t1_jba6man wrote
A lot of cobalt is used in the refining of petrol, diesel, etc.. as a catalyst to remove sulphur.
[deleted] t1_jb8uxxf wrote
Not really. Cobalt is still heavily used in anything with a chip really
TheReverendCard t1_jb8vkd1 wrote
It's also used in metals, tools, pigments, and soaps. You going to say we shouldn't have those too? Or just come to rag on EVs even though they're not going to be a major source soon.
nathansym t1_jb94m6s wrote
Sorry if I was misinformed. This is the wrong place for a fight.
[deleted] t1_jb91zvx wrote
Didn’t say a thing about EVs either way, just pointed out that cobalt is widely used and absolutely devastating in terms of how it is extracted. Please direct your anger to someone else thank you
Oerthling t1_jb9kn3j wrote
That stupid talking point again.
Bad working conditions around cobalt extraction need to be fixed, regardless of EV production.
Every kind of product uses resources. The materials used in ICE cars, buses or even trains don't fall from trees.
We should use less cars overall, move more people in more efficient vehicles, avoid needles business trips by moving meetings online. But the vehicles that eventually remain will be electric. ICE needs to die.
The "think of the cobalt" argument is probably from the same fossil think tank that gave us such classics as "wind turbines are killing all the birds" (a tiny fraction compared to the genocidal numbers cats murder each year).
I'm waiting for "solar panels steal sunshine" or whatever.
cyberentomology t1_jb9s3fm wrote
>solar panels steal sunshine
I mean, technically, yeah they do. That’s kind of the entire point, innit? Law of energy conservation and all that. Surface temperatures under a solar farm are significantly cooler (as one would expect, because, you know, shade and the whole turning solar energy into electrical energy thing.
And until we start launching our trash into the sun, solar isn’t actually renewable… there’s just more of it than we will ever use. And at the end of the day, all energy used on planet earth is just solar energy that has been stored somehow, at some point along the way.
Oerthling t1_jb9tl1y wrote
Ok. Sure. But is there a point to what you said?
We agree on the physics, which of course change nothing with regard to "solar panels steal sunshine" would be stupid propaganda by the fossil fuel industry.
Also, again, technically correct that the solar fusion by the sun is not renewable on cosmic multi-billion to trillion year time scales, but that has NOTHING to do with the definition of renewable within human discussion time scales.
Oil is going to run out in decades or a century or whatever, if we kept using it like the recent past it's gone in n generations and n is likely a single digit.
Solar OTOH is not going to run out before we
A) go extinct anyway
B) figured out practical fusion
C) spread out over half the galaxy.
It's renewable within any relevant time scales.
More than we'll ever use is what renewable means.
cyberentomology t1_jb9xpx4 wrote
We also thought that about oil at one point, woefully underestimating the human appetite for cheap energy, for which we’re just now paying the price.
Burning them is a monumental waste of perfectly good and useful organic compounds.
Juggling the changing demand for gasoline over the next decade or more is going to be an interesting challenge, because when you refine crude oil, you’re separating it out into several different fuel and feedstock compounds, and the amount of crude you need to refine depends on the demand for that particular fraction. So if you reduce gasoline output, you’re also reducing output of things like diesel, propane, kerosene, fuel oil, asphalt, etc. if the demand for any of those doesn’t drop along with that of gasoline (or demand for gasoline stays steady while it drops for other fractions), you end up with oversupply or undersupply (which is a major component of why diesel costs have soared relative to gasoline). If demand for diesel, jet fuel, and ship fuel oil stays steady while gasoline drops, the cost of gasoline is going to crater, changing the economics of BEVs. Now add in biofuels, which change the demand for petroleum fractions, and it’s gonna be a wild ride for a few decades.
Oerthling t1_jba4mz9 wrote
It's going to be a wild ride for sure. But outside of planes I don't think that fossil fuels in general have much future.
Ships can be moved by some combination of wind power (turbines, not sails for large container ships), batteries or "green" hydrogen (which makes such hydrogen effectively a kind of fluid battery).
Large, long range planes are the one exception where a solution isn't available or easily foreseeable for the near (decade or 2) future, because of particular volume and weight restrictions.
The price of gasoline won't matter much when gas stations close. And gas stations will close when a sizable percentage of the customer base switched to BEVs.
Also, depending on regional market a more or less relevant percentage of the gas price is not just the cost of gas production and distribution but also taxes. And those taxes can easily get raised further to discourage gasoline. Which is likely to happen.
Diesel will quickly die alongside gasoline, except for a niche of construction vehicles, etc..
Diesel/gas won't make a difference when it comes to getting replaced by BEVs for regular cars. In a decade it might well be easier to find a charger than a gas station.
cyberentomology t1_jba57v7 wrote
Absolutely, but the change in demand for the various fuels and fractions is not going to be simultaneous or linear, which is going to lead to some pretty wild fluctuations in supply (and consequently, prices). It will eventually find the right equilibrium, but that’s gonna take a while.
nathansym t1_jb9qj59 wrote
These people would beg to differ that this is a "bad talking point:"
https://www.tiktok.com/@ancientciv/video/7205699999244537131
Oerthling t1_jb9rx2b wrote
Did you just try to support your point with a Joe Rogan video on TikTok?
I can't even watch that video because I block TikTok and really have 0 interest in listening to Joe Rogan.
Assuming this is about abusive working conditions - again - that's not about extracting a particular resource, but about abusive working conditions. This needs to get regulated and improved regardless of resource or what it is used for.
What about iron, copper, nickel, gold and platinum? Oh and let's not forget the goddamn oil that gets extracted, processed, transported and burned to drive ICE cars.
nathansym t1_jb9syre wrote
Spotify more your speed?
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3ZBdeZLitzqNPBbvv9QIEz?si=13b6be5db8a642df
Don't listen to Joe Rogan, listen to Siddharth Kara.
I agree that all of those are bad. I would not post something about more of those minerals being mined or more ICE cars being sold in uplifting news.
I would post something about the mining's abusive working conditions that need to get regulated and improved regardless of resource or what it is used for.
Oerthling t1_jb9tspg wrote
EVs vs ICE is uplifting because it's an improvement. It doesn't have to be perfect, because nothing ever is anyway. It just needs to be better.
nathansym t1_jb9txze wrote
Fair enough. I see your point.
Oerthling t1_jb9uaf6 wrote
:-)
And I will agree that there is a lot to improve around resource extraction and use.
I just don't like batteries being singled out at a time when humanity needs to get out of burning dead dinosaur soup.
Oerthling t1_jb9txy2 wrote
I cancelled Spotify because they give tons of money to Joe Rogan.
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