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ChanceTheGardenerr t1_irxisex wrote

This is the kind of cosmetic bullshittery that is happening instead of real social reform.

Leave the street signs alone and dismantle the school-to-prison pipeline, already.

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Swak_Error t1_irzwx59 wrote

I'm kind of convinced that this meaningless activism like changing the name of a street is some kind of psyop to make people think that they're actually accomplishing something in the name of social justice, when in truth that's not doing jack shit.

I know far too many people who act like they just solved the world hunger when a town caves and renames a street name or bus terminal or something like that

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Granolapitcher t1_iryxble wrote

There’s a school and prison on plantation street!

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Gahlic1 t1_irz82sf wrote

??? There's no prison on Plantation street.

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Granolapitcher t1_irz8c25 wrote

There’s a juvie on the UMass campus

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Gahlic1 t1_irz8l04 wrote

What? Where?

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Granolapitcher t1_irz8rso wrote

It’s the giant painted building with the girl and the flower off of route 9. They do a good job hiding it.

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Gahlic1 t1_irz9fff wrote

🧐. Nope

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Granolapitcher t1_irz9hyw wrote

Hiding what it actually is*

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Gahlic1 t1_irza4ju wrote

Nope. There's a nursing home, near the campus. Behind Biotech is Worc recovery, with an adolescent unit... maybe that's what your thinking of? That's psych, not jail.

0

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxt81w wrote

>Leave the street signs alone and dismantle the school-to-prison broken home-to-prison pipeline, already.

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Evergreen_76 t1_is1c4ix wrote

> Leave the street signs alone and dismantle the broken housing and wage economy-prison, broken education-prison, broken home-to-prison pipeline, police-prison industrial complex, already.

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Severe_East3735 t1_is025bj wrote

1000000% OP doesn't even make sense with their own logic since Novick already removed cops from schools. Making them unsafer 🤷‍♀️

−3

Fit_Coyote_7117 t1_is1lsyy wrote

Agreed. Worcester has far more serious problems. Get some genuine school reform. Some genuine childcare alternatives. Some genuine WFH opportunities for single parents. Anything but taking up time with this fucktangle of meaningless nonsense.

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ChanceTheGardenerr t1_is1skhz wrote

Fucktangle is the word I was looking for, thx

3

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_is8mmns wrote

It's a new one on me, I like it, it's so expressive and can be used so many ways. Would have worked well with the old Kelley Sq. Trying to get up after falling on skis or falling off the toilet when your drunk. Could describe a new way your ex wife's lawyer is trying to squeeze you or an adventure in bed gone amok. Drunk people in a fist fight on a cruise ship. Black Friday at Target. Any route out of Boston at rush hour on a Friday. The list is endless.

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ChanceTheGardenerr t1_is9o5oc wrote

Kelley Sq cured me of driving for Uber. A fucktangle of fucked-angles.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_isafk0v wrote

In my day it was called a clusterfuck and the best way then to get through it was to take a deep breath, close your eyes and floor it. BTW at one time Kelley Sq was on the list of the ten worst intersections in the US. My understanding is that Lincoln Sq once was similarly configured and had train tracks running through it.

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outb0undflight t1_irxopo4 wrote

I'm in favor of the change, it's good if it happens, but it's maybe item #734 on my list of "Ways to Make Worcester Better."

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No_Cartographer_5298 t1_iryo5d7 wrote

Do we all agree #1 is the fact that Worcester is a garbage patch disguised as a city

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[deleted] OP t1_irz11fo wrote

No. Worcester is a good city, diverse and generally harmonious (despite non-profit employees trying to earn a buck by promoting division).

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No_Cartographer_5298 t1_irz1rlq wrote

Huh? I'm not talking about the people or saying Worcester's a bad city. I fucking love Worcester. I'm saying literally that Worcester has a huge trash problem and there are massive amounts of trash and garbage that's covering the city.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz2zir wrote

Sorry! I thought you were saying Worcester was a bad place, etc. I agree, though; the trash is everywhere. It's a little better now that they've got those green bins, though, but I don't know why they can't just install public trash receptacles and do street sweeping. I can't remember how long it's been since I 've come across a street sweeper.

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No_Cartographer_5298 t1_irz4324 wrote

The only area that I know for sure that's being cleaned and maintained every single day is the downtown business district. And that's only because the Ambassadors - who unfortunately only operate in that area.

Source: am downtown district ambassador

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[deleted] OP t1_irz5dnl wrote

>Source: am downtown district ambassador

Good job. I say that without sarcasm; downtown really does look nice nowadays, and it does make me feel a sense of pride when I bring out-of-town guests.

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No_Cartographer_5298 t1_irz9b6i wrote

Thank you! Always good to hear. I genuinely care about this city and I'm happy to be able to take part in keeping it clean.

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progressive508 t1_iryr5xl wrote

No. #1 for me is the corruption and negligence in city hall/WPD. Its pretty bad. This city absolutely excels at losing millions in lawsuits because of it.

Holden sewer dispute - $14 million (2022 - lost bc city didn’t follow existing agreement w/Holden)

Sky bridge suit - $12.5 million (settlement 2018, lost bc city didn’t abide their promise to build the bridge from major Taylor garage to Hilton Garden inn)

Public records suit - $100k (2022, city got reamed by the judge for illegally withholding police records)

Various police misconduct suits - at least $12 million since 2010 (there are still several pending cases)

At least $38.5 million since 2018.

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-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxbbn7 wrote

I think it is just virtue signaling. Quinsigamond was the name of the plantation. They do not want want to change the name of the lake closest to them.

Does UMass go through every product they purchase to make sure today's slave labor is not use to produce those products?

If they wanted to fight oppression, they could do it, changing a street name does nothing but put a feather in their cap.

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CatumEntanglement t1_iry7rgt wrote

I also want to know if they are going to pay for each and every resident along Plantation Street the fees associated with changing their address on governmental forms, like deeds and getting a new issued ID/drivers license?? UMMS wants it so bad, so THEY should be shelling out the $$. If not them...would the city of worcester do it? VERY doubtful. So OF COURSE it will be on the residents of Plantation street.

It goes much farther than just changing a street name, because there are real life issues associated with someone's address being changed. Like I hope the people who live on and own property on Plantation Street go to that council meeting and express how time consuming AND expensive it will be for a major road to be changed because someone decided one morning their CV would look better when they smugly add in that they got "that terrible slavery road" changed in the area under "diversity and inclusion". 100% this is a stunt to make someone's resume look better so they can get promoted or get a better paying job.

There is a whole history of this steet that I've sure the person initating the name change is unaware of. In 1637, the first settlement of Worcester was called the “Village of Quinsigamond” or the “Quinsigamond Plantation.”  Plus...this isn't re-naming a street with an OBVIOUS Jim crow era nod, like "Lynchburg" or "Robert E Lee". I guarantee you that this is coming from someone who does not know Worcester history, doesn't live on Plantation Street, and probably doesn't even live in Worcester.

I am all about equality and equity in the workplace, but this kind of stuff grinds my gears because it it such an obvious attempt at virtue signaling in the worse way. Like smugly saying "I did something"..... without you know....actually putting time and effort doing sonething that acrually helps to fight against implicit bias in the workplace or institutionized racism in the sciences. This is the epitome of lazy I'm-gonna-do-something-but- don't-want-to-put-in-effort PR move to make people feel better about themselves.

Like...how about doing something for the Worcester community that positively affects people... like more UMass outreach into the worcester public schools, which on a whole represent underrepresented minorities, and help these kind of kids in the sciences? You know...like a school-to-STEM pipeline instead of a school-to-prison pipeline? I think that would be MUCH better than slapping a new name on a street and saying "oh racism is fixed!!"...and "welp, it's your problem now with the address change thingy but I SURE DO feel better". Oh wait....but going into the community that entails ACTUAL effort. No no...pressuring the city to change a street name will be just as good and make them feel better about themselves that thet did something for "the POC". When come on.... it's self serving bullshit made to make themselves feel better.

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LedZeppelin58 t1_iry91c2 wrote

Mic drop

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CatumEntanglement t1_iryaliz wrote

And I'm glad I'm not the only one to see through this thinly veiled cosmetic attempt at "fixing racism" by doing nothing but making it harder on the current residents of Plantation street (by the way are majority POC and who will be forced to bare the brunt of time/fees to change their address).

Thankfully seems like someone on the council board sees through this too: from the Boston globe

>The Worcester City Council is expected to hear the petition at its weekly meeting Wednesday at 6:30 p.m. From there, it will be referred to the Public Works Committee, which oversees local infrastructure related to streets and public buildings.

>George Russell, chair of the Public Works Committee, called UMass’s petition “not well thought out” and “inconsiderate” to the home and business owners along Plantation Street, which stretches more than 4 miles. Changing the name, Russell said, would require hundreds of people to update their drivers’ licenses, passports, mortgages, and more.

>“It’s one thing if it was a small street, and the people who owned property or rented properties all came together,” Russell said. “It’s almost like asking each one of them to move.”

>Russell said he previously spoke to Anderson and suggested creating an honorary name for the section of the road that runs along campus.

>He said he understands the university’s concerns, but noted that there are likely other parts of Worcester’s history that may be offensive to some and said the city has more pressing issues to address.

>“If you look up the word plantation in the dictionary, there’s no reference to slavery,” Russell said. “I don’t know any history of a plantation or plantations [in Worcester].”

>Plantation Street was the first road built on the Quinsigamond Plantation, a village established by European settlers in the 1600s, according to an account of local history by the City of Worcester. The site was destroyed in King Phillip’s War, a bloody conflict between settlers and native tribes including the Nipmuc, and rebuilt as Worcester, according to the Worcester Memorial Auditorium.

>Russell’s district includes the bottom portion of Plantation Street and all of Plantation Terrace.

So this is someone who actually represents the regular people who live on plantation-named roads. Good! Thankfully they are thinking about their constituents and not a corporate entity telling the city what to do at the expense of "the little people".

It honestly makes me sick that there are people who are wanting to do this without regard for how it will affect the lives of those who live on plantation-named roads. Just so a six-figure paid diversity consultant umass hired can add to their resume that "they helped fight racism" by doing the most minimal effort possible. People throw around the term virtue-signalling way too mich nowadays (like the boy who cried wolf)...but THIS...this is an example of exactly what virtue-signalling is and how it does nothing to actually help real societal issues. Again...who are going to be the ones paying fees for name changes?? Notice UMass isn't coming out to say they'll be forking over all that money to the worcester residents affected!! Who...again are majority POC who live on plantation-named roads. Yeah...."let's put a monetary burden on some POC people on the Worcester community so we can feel smug when we drive home to Northborough". Litterally the opposite of how you help a community fight against racism.

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[deleted] OP t1_iryc8wd wrote

Fucking bravo, man. Bravo.

School-to-STEM pipeline - I love that idea! I hope that you'll call into the city council meeting and speak on the things you've said. They're meeting tomo., 6.30!

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CatumEntanglement t1_iryh3da wrote

I actually do what I preach...I have POC high school students come to my lab at umass to mentor them in 1) what a STEM career can look like, 2) help them see how a STEM career is something they can do, and 3) help them get into more colleges with a lab internship on their CV. Basically give them opportunities that otherwise wouldn’t be afforded to them, unless they cane from rich families with connections. But by and large, I'm the one who does the heavy lifting trying to do outreach into area schools. The diversity initiative at umass is a joke in most ways that can have practical applications to ACTUALLY help out the local community. Basically all they have to offer is red tape and "oh that sounds like a good idea" but don't follow through. They COULD invest all the time and money from this street-naming campaign into expanding the diversity outreach people like me, and a few other labs, are already doing on our own time. Like I'd LOVE to have an admin assistant dedicated to communicating with area guidance counselors and interested research labs to match each other up with interested HS students. But I guess the street nane thing is FAR too important than expanding the "silly" notion of getting HS students in a school-to-STEM pipeline.

I also cannot explain enough how much this street thing is a big PR bandaid on a much larger UMass issue has with POC employees. I feel like it's a big distraction IMO....a big fat red herring. UMMS has an issue with department heads not promoting or hiring women/POC people when their CVs are top notch. Looking at top level leadership positions in departments, there is a lack of both women and POC....and that is definitely not due to a lack of excellence women and POC have on the job. There also is a great deal of ablism through UMMS leadership, that those who aren't neurotypical are not given promotions even though their work output clearly should be recognized. I can tell you in absolute terms that people in the UMMS community are not complaining about the street name. The biggest issues in the community right now are the anti-labor activities and institutionalized rascism internal to the medical center. I feel those issues are trying to be rug swept with this new street name PR campaign.

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[deleted] OP t1_iryyj62 wrote

I've found that a lot of the time, this "look at all the progressive things we're doing!" stuff that corporations do is a fig leaf for actual problems they're making.

You, though, sound like a mensch. Imagine if they did that, if they just paid the same salary they're giving the DEI guy (probably they could hire two coordinators for the guidance councilors!) to just keep a pipeline from North, South, Doherty, Burncoat, UPHS, Claremont...that would do wonders for the community.

I really hope someone will say this part especially at the city council meeting.

2

HuggySnuggle t1_iryqtyz wrote

That's exactly it. It would cost a goddamn fortune to update every map, every address, every form, every street sign. They couldn't do this if they wanted to, which means they have no intention of actually going through with it. In other words, this is 100% virtue signalling, designed to show the world how 'woke' and 'ree-ree' they are without actually doing anything.

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420blazeit69nubz t1_is0nf62 wrote

You hit the nail on the head. Least effort to make them feel better they “did something” without going the long and arduous way of actually fixing and dismantling the true issues.

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JowCola t1_is3n5r0 wrote

>I guarantee you that this is coming from someone who does not know Worcester history, doesn't live on Plantation Street, and probably doesn't even live in Worcester.

Five bucks says they probably don't even live here and it's being pushed by some out-of-state Clarkie asshole Urban Studies major.

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CatumEntanglement t1_is3q8y1 wrote

It's actually coming from the chancellor of the school, Michael Collins...and he's pushing a consultant (umass hired at 6 figures to do a campus analysis on diversity) to push the plantation-slavery narrative to get the street change. This is not something altruistic from Collins because he's concerned about the word "Plantation" at all... It's a PR red herring to do 2 things: distract from the racial inequalities in things such as promotions within UMMS and to help UMMS's brand.

I was asking around at work today what the inside take was regarding UMass's insistence all of a sudden to push Worcester to rename Plantation street. The reality is no one cares about the street name b/c there are far more pertinent things going on within Umass like anti-labor and discriminatory practices within departments.

What I heard was that UMMS is looking to rename the other streets around campus, such a North road and South road that are w/in campus to be more "branded", i.e. like how other research campuses name roads to be "science-y" like "Einstein circuit" or "Curie Way". They want to rename Plantation street to be more branded because the new big building being built will have a Plantation street address. UMMS leadership has been wanting the addresses to their main research buildings to be made more research-centric, like "Discovery Street" or something like that.

It's just corporate BS, like it usually is. The real push is coming from the chancellor that a new street name would help the UMMS brand and get more big donors. They are weaponizing virtue signaling as the excuse to make it about racial connotations, or else the city of worcester would just laugh at their request to change the name of a 4 mile long street. They aren't putting in a request to change the names of north and south roads until the Plantation street situation is figured out, because if they did it now...it would be obvious that UMass’s real MO was selfishly to get a better branding opportunity.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irze48j wrote

Stop googling historical facts to support a weak argument.

Worcester’s first settlement was 1673, not 1637 like your Wikipedia article states.

You know what did happen in the area in 1637? English colonists started the Pequot War, and either killed or enslaved the Pequots, wiping out the tribe.

Quinsigamond is the Nipmuc name of the lake. Plantation was added by the English settlers. Those same settlers who killed and stole all this land from its original inhabitants.

−5

darksideofthemoon131 t1_iryi5fl wrote

> Does UMass go through every product they purchase to make sure today's slave labor is not use to produce those products?

Guarantee they use Nestlé products somewhere.

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Hate_Gatekeeping t1_irxehob wrote

Quinsigamond Plantation was the name of the first european settlement here. The name Quinsigamond itself has nothing to do with colonization and everything to do with the local natives.

You are using false equivalencies to support a very flawed argument.

As far as "today's slave labor", it has nothing to do with foreign slavery and everything to do with an attempt to correct mistakes of the past, and to not glorify any references to those mistakes. Its the exact same reason why confederate statues should be removed from public lands.

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[deleted] OP t1_irye4rc wrote

You think Plantation Street's name - and remember, before the 1800s, farms were called plantations - is the same as a Confederate statue?

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thisisntmynametoday t1_iryitjo wrote

Many Nipmuc and Wampanoags were sold into slavery during the colonial years, especially in the aftermath of King Philip’s War.

−5

[deleted] OP t1_irz19j5 wrote

So then your problem is with the history of the region. That has nothing to do with the word "plantation."

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Cheap_Coffee t1_is0z5cy wrote

More correctly: as a *result* of wars.

It was standard practice in those days to sell any (indigenous) prisoners taken during the wars. Most were shipped out to the Caribbean. They were not, by and large, used as slaves locally -- there were already more than enough indentured servants on hand to do the work.

This also started well before King Philip's War.

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FoxFogwell t1_irxp1cm wrote

This will change zero lives. Waste of time and money

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Cheap_Coffee t1_iry1lhv wrote

It's not that big a deal, TBH.

−1

[deleted] OP t1_iryebiv wrote

It is for the person who has to change their license and registration (do you like dealing with the RMV?! I really am not looking forward to that part), billing information on everything, leases, and all kinds of other things, all so someone at UMass can benefit no one but add to his resume.

They should put it to a vote of those of us who reside on Plantation Street.

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UniqueCartel t1_is0vgnw wrote

It won’t be a vote. That’s not how these changes are made in the city’s charter. It could possibly be a vote if someone starts a citizens petition. Ask the city clerk about that process if you are interested.

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JowCola t1_is3mk7s wrote

Not a big deal?

Cool, let's not do it, then

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SonuvaGunderson t1_iryp4xb wrote

This is my take. Just go ahead and do it and not waste any time and resources to discuss it.

Why be precious about a street name?

−3

very_random_user t1_irz18yf wrote

It is incredibly annoying for people and businesses with addresses on that street. A friend of mine lived through a change once and he had problems with mail, bills and packages for years.

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Cheap_Coffee t1_is0s07y wrote

I find that hard to believe. I've moved every 6 years, on average. I've never had a problem with the change of address. You know the US postal service will forward your mail for up to 18 months after your change-of-address?

And, of course, I actually inform my creditors when I move.

−1

very_random_user t1_is0uiur wrote

Completely different issue. In this case the old address disappears you aren't just moving around. Anyway, that was an experience I reported maybe he was unlucky. Different issue but, for instance, most curriers don't deliver at my parents main address because it's not correctly mapped on Gmaps. Small changes can make big differences.

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Cheap_Coffee t1_is0y4tw wrote

The issue is "change of address." In both cases the address changed. The fact that one address (the old street name) doesn't exist anymore is irrelevant.

Perhaps this is an issue your friend should take up with the local postmaster. (As with your issue with carriers refusing to deliver to your parents' house.)

−1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_iryltgo wrote

I understand the connection to slavery in the word plantation. In fact I think most people's first thought upon hearing the word plantation would be slavery. That does not make the word racist. The definition of racist is, prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. That's it. If it was say, Plantation Rd somewhere in the deep south, well that would probably upset a lot of people and rightly so. There was very little slavery here in the northeast but there were plantations here before slavery came to America. Plantation then referred to a settlement like Quinsigamond or Quaboag. It also referred to agriculture something that remained in that part of Worcester until the 1950s. So besides Plantation St referring to the 1600s settlement and not slavery there's no rational argument to change it. I think there's altogether way too much of this racism McCarthyism. You're just not going to find racism under every rock. When something like this is overplayed it's reduced to noise and people tune it out. Racism is a serious subject that must not be ignored but you need to know what you are talking about and not just casually toss it around.

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NativeSon508 t1_irx966q wrote

My god, not everything in the world is racist. That word is so abused it’s lost all its meaning. It’s like “awesome” in the 90s or “epic” in the 00s.

What next? Change cotton to “funnsies”? Cotton is a word people relate to plantations which is related to slavery = racist. What about “farm” or “crop”? Aren’t those related to plantations and therefore racist too?

Just stop. Stop trying to be offended by everything. Just. Stop.

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[deleted] OP t1_irx9jc2 wrote

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's racist; I'm just stating that that is the given reason for the proposal.

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Kirbyoto t1_irxc64f wrote

>What next? Change cotton to “funnsies”? Cotton is a word people relate to plantations which is related to slavery = racist. What about “farm” or “crop”? Aren’t those related to plantations and therefore racist too?

"If things were different, then they would be different. Checkmate."

The connection between plantations and slavery is very obvious and common. Adding extra steps and saying "well wouldn't it be ridiculous if they did this next" is irrelevant, because they haven't done that. This is basically like arguing that if the government bans drunk driving, then the next step is to ban driving entirely.

>Stop trying to be offended by everything.

You first, since you're obviously offended by the idea of renaming a street, something nobody in the world cares about otherwise.

2

[deleted] OP t1_irxelbs wrote

>You first, since you're obviously offended by the idea of renaming a street, something nobody in the world cares about otherwise.

I'm offended by the idea that the medical school has nothing better to do than to pontificate about street names and then use it's weight to push an unwanted change in the city, which would cause even more confusion than there normally is when trying to give directions around the unwieldy traffic grid.

The idea that Plantation Street has a name that somehow causes people pain because it reminds that of plantations, and then they - adding an extra step themselves - remember that there was slavery on plantations, and fail to recall that there were and currently are plantations without slavery and many other places with slavery, is nonsensical.

These people are just inventing problems.

6

Kirbyoto t1_irxfr7i wrote

>I'm offended by the idea that the medical school has nothing better to do than to pontificate about street names

And what about you? Do you have anything better to do?

>which would cause even more confusion than there normally is when trying to give directions around the unwieldy traffic grid

Everyone has GPS now, I don't imagine anyone would really give a shit if not for the race angle.

>fail to recall that there were and currently are plantations without slavery

Sure dude. All those famous slavery-free plantations.

>These people are just inventing problems.

"Oh no they're renaming a street" is inventing a problem too. Again, if this wasn't done for race-related reasons, you absolutely wouldn't care. If they were renaming a street to honor a local hero or just because it sounded better, nobody on the planet would give a shit.

−1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxgq83 wrote

Did Quinsigamond Plantation have slaves?

9

outb0undflight t1_irxqkza wrote

As /u/Kirbyoto points out, American colonists in colonial New England had very few compunctions about selling Native Americans into slavery, so whether or not Quinsigamond Plantation itself had slaves is kind of ignoring the point that it's largely impossible to extricate the word 'Plantation' in America from the practice of slavery. Even if a specific plantation owner didn't own slaves and used entirely paid labor (which is a massive if) they were all part of a system that relied on slavery for sustainability. Why do you think profit margins on goods from the American colonies were so high?

People like OP can point to the fact that Plantations still exist without slavery all they want, but Plantation St. was named after a Plantation that actively took place in the American plantation economy, and that is impossible to divorce from slavery.

4

[deleted] OP t1_irxxvh4 wrote

Your argument is weird. The name Plantation Street is bad because it is connected to the people who founded this country, since it was created by people who founded the country, and even though it's not referring to a slave plantation, it was named by people who could have had slaves, so it's therefore a slavery-reminiscent name?

Also, we did "extricate the word 'Plantation' in America from the practice of slavery." Every single day, thousands of people in this city alone use the word "plantation" without thinking of anything aside from a street that runs from Rice Square past Lincoln Plaza to Northeast Cutoff.

4

outb0undflight t1_iry0nk8 wrote

No? That's literally not my argument. It has nothing to do with who named the street, it's that in the United States the word "plantation" is inextricably linked to the Atlantic Slave Trade. This is not a question. The majority of Africans taken from Africa ended up on Sugar Cane plantations in the Carribean. The majority of Slaves in America ended up on cash crop plantations in the South. The slave trade picked up and expanded specifically because these plantations needed labor. They only started to use paid labor when they ran out of slaves to use. Even if you want to argue that some people within the plantation economy system didn't use slaves, the vast, vast majority of them did. Are you starting to see a link between the word plantation and slavery?

4

[deleted] OP t1_iry36yg wrote

Before the 1800s, when the name was first applied, a plantation was just some kind of farm-type area. "Plantation" was used before anyone even permanently settled here, so there is absolutely no relation to slavery. That name came into being before the whole Southern plantation system started. We're not talking about Robert E. Lee Road. We're talking about a street whose name can be interpreted as something tangential to slavery if you stop and think about it and if you want to and if you aren't completely honest. It's not a racist street name. It's not a name that anyone has taken issue with. It's some some bureaucrats looking to justify their role at the medical school. Worcester has a Black community that has never raised this as an issue, ever. It took paid (highly paid) diversity consultants to come and tell us our street name is a problem.

You know what was also linked to slavery? Cotton. Shall we get rid of that term as well? Should the school send its consultant to Leominster to demand that they change the name of Cotton Street? Should they go to Sturbridge and demand that the name of the Cotton Mills Dam be changed? I mean, that's more directly related to slavery, since the cotton mill it's named after opened in the antebellum period and, you know, was a cotton mill.

0

Ikirio t1_iry4bh3 wrote

And to add..... UMASSMED doesnt pay its post-docs or graduate students well. We all just got a raise because after a review the school realized we were paid so shit that it was actually illegal by MASS equal pay laws and they wanted to get ahead of it before we caught on.

They are paying a consultant/DIG officer at least 100K plus staff for their office and building etc so that they can virtue signal about shit that has no impact on a fucking single person while engaging in some of the worst anti-labor shit. Its a bunch of horse shit.

4

[deleted] OP t1_irybt6k wrote

Sort of like, "Hey, look at this shiny quarter over here..."

1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxuqqz wrote

>Even if a specific plantation owner didn't own slaves and used entirely paid labor (which is a massive if) they were all part of a system that relied on slavery for sustainability.

Do you understand what you are saying right now?

−1

outb0undflight t1_irxwtpm wrote

Yes that people who did not own slaves could still take part in a system that relies on slavery. This isn't some fucking galaxy brain take. The point is that you can't "Not All Plantation Owners!" away the fact that in America the word is inextricably linked with the Atlantic Slave Trade.

This is all entirely seperate from the fact that Quinsigamond Village and Quinsigamond Plantation are basically the same thing. QP was more like a homestead than a plantation in the traditional sense. So people getting bent out of shape about the fucking plantation part are ONLY getting pissy because of the race/slavery aspect.

4

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxz8sm wrote

>Yes that people who did not own slaves could still take part in a system that relies on slavery. This isn't some fucking galaxy brain take.

You do realize there are more slaves today than in the history of the US. You buying goods that are globally sourced today is contributing more to slave labor than the colonists ever have.

You are using more slave labor because of your nikes, iPhone, and solar panels than were ever used on plantations.

1

Kirbyoto t1_irxh9j9 wrote

I don't know if it had African slaves but apparently at the time when the area was called "Quinsigamond plantation", settlers were in the habit of enslaving natives...so, basically, yes.

"Between the war’s outbreak in June 1675 and its end in August 1676, up to forty percent of New England’s indigenous population had been killed, died in captivity, or sold into slavery."

By the way - did anyone in this thread defending the name "Plantation St" know literally anything about Quinsigamond Plantation before today?

2

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_irxsnng wrote

I guess we need to rename the city also. Worcester has ties to wars with natives.

I did not see much information about slavery on Quinsigamond Plantation in your link. Much more like a passing comment.

>By the way - did anyone in this thread defending the name "Plantation St" know literally anything about Quinsigamond Plantation before today?

I like to learn about the history of my surroundings, so yes, I did.

>I don't know if it had African slaves

Who said anything about where the slaves originated from? I asked about slaves. Does it matter where the slaves came from? Are certain slaves more oppressed in history than others?

Why is UMass not addressing today's slaves. The slaves that make the stainless steel for their medical instruments, the solar panels for their green initiative. Does UMass only get their fuel for their generators and life flight from areas that do not oppress women?

Pushing to change the name of a street because of the word plantation is about as shallow as you can get.

4

chadwickipedia t1_irxzwdu wrote

Why stop at the city name, rename Massachusetts

3

Kirbyoto t1_iryfdzo wrote

>I did not see much information about slavery on Quinsigamond Plantation in your link. Much more like a passing comment.

Yes it's almost like Quinsigamond Plantation isn't tremendously important to history and the people furiously defending its namesake are just looking for things to be upset about. Again, did you know a single thing about it before today?

>I like to learn about the history of my surroundings, so yes, I did.

Name one thing about it without Googling right now.

>Who said anything about where the slaves originated from? I asked about slaves.

And I answered about slaves. I told you about slavery, and genocide to boot. So it sounds like you're just looking for a distraction.

>Why is UMass not addressing today's slaves.

Are you? Do you make sure all the products you use are made without slave labor? Or are you "virtue signalling" right now?

>Pushing to change the name of a street because of the word plantation is about as shallow as you can get.

Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

−2

[deleted] OP t1_irz1zpp wrote

>Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

No, that's nonsense. If things are fine as they are in any given situation, e.g. the Grafton Hill's array of street names, telling someone not to intervene to make a change is sensible. Others have already mentioned the burden it puts on the thousands of people who live on this street to change all their documents, and the tens of thousands of dollars on new street signage, as well as the fact that people don't like their street names being changed as evidenced by people's responses to Kilby Street's name being changed, and you have a pretty good set of reasons.

The fact that some people here, yours truly not included, don't know the history is further proof of the argument that no one views "plantation" in some historical sense. It's viewed as the word for this street, right now, not the slavery that didn't even exist in the area when Quinsigamond Plantation was named.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is1xp5f wrote

>If things are fine as they are in any given situation, e.g. the Grafton Hill's array of street names, telling someone not to intervene to make a change is sensible.

So literally your only argument is that all change is inherently bad and has to be hyper-justified. There's a lot more examples of that in the city for you to freak out about than just the name of one street. Frankly I'm just disregarding this argument entirely, in the wake of all the changes Worcester has gone through I think pretending anyone cares about one street name is truly disingenuous.

>The fact that some people here, yours truly not included, don't know the history is further proof of the argument that no one views "plantation" in some historical sense.

You can know the connotations of the word "plantation" without knowing the specific history of Quinsigamond plantation. This is like arguing that if you know what a castle is, then you must know the history of Windsor castle.

>not the slavery that didn't even exist in the area when Quinsigamond Plantation was named.

As established earlier, there was slavery in the area - the enslavement of Native Americans. Like I said, nobody who's mad about this change knows anything about the history of Quinsigamond Plantation, including you.

1

-Horatio_Alger_Jr- t1_is03lm8 wrote

>Yes it's almost like Quinsigamond Plantation isn't tremendously important to history and the people furiously defending its namesake are just looking for things to be upset about. Again, did you know a single thing about it before today?

It is very important to the history of the area and country.

>Name one thing about it without Googling right now.

The Johnson massacre.

>And I answered about slaves. I told you about slavery, and genocide to boot. So it sounds like you're just looking for a distraction.

A distraction?

>Are you? Do you make sure all the products you use are made without slave labor? Or are you "virtue signalling" right now?

I do. I use sites like still made in the US and others before I purchase most things. It really does not matter to the conversation though, as I am not trying to change the name of anything.

>Pushing against it for effectively no reason is shallower.

No reason? Why do you say that?

1

Kirbyoto t1_is1x4fa wrote

>It is very important to the history of the area and country.

Literally everything that happens is technically important to history. But "it's important to history" and "people in the area know and/or care about it" are two different statements.

>The Johnson massacre.

Ah, so the one thing you knew is "well the natives killed some people too". Convenient.

>A distraction?

Yes, a way for you to avoid the actual point, which is that the Quinsigamond Plantation does have a history with slavery and genocide. Your little "oh who said anything about AFRICAN slavery" schtick was just stalling for time.

>I use sites like still made in the US and others before I purchase most things.

And where do those companies get their materials from? Do you think you can circumvent international capitalism with smart choices from a website?

>It really does not matter to the conversation though, as I am not trying to change the name of anything.

You are trying to preserve the name of something that you have no genuine reason to care about. Also, it does matter to the conversation, since your main reason that UMASS shouldn't advocate for the name being changed is that you personally believe they aren't morally pure enough to "deserve" it.

>No reason? Why do you say that?

I mean you don't really care. Nobody in this thread does. Pretending that a street name being changed is somehow offensive or disgusting to you is obviously fake shit. What you actually care about is the idea of things becoming "more PC", hence why a street name has become the flashpoint for all of Worcester's dingy little conservatives to crawl out of the darkness and pretend they have something important to say.

1

[deleted] OP t1_irxj1hy wrote

>And what about you? Do you have anything better to do?

Currently, I'm waiting for feedback on a document I need to process. Not much else to do.

>Everyone has GPS now, I don't imagine anyone would really give a shit if not for the race angle.

Just to be clear, street names don't matter, and Worcester streets aren't notoriously complex, and people no longer ask for directions anymore? And the only possible reason that anyone could worry about changing the name of one of the most important streets in the city could be the "race issue"?

>Sure dude. All those famous slavery-free plantations.

Well, the first picture Wikipedia shows for "plantation" is of a current tree plantation in Galilee which is - you guessed it - devoid of slavery.

>"Oh no they're renaming a street" is inventing a problem too. Again, if this wasn't done for race-related reasons, you absolutely wouldn't care. If they were renaming a street to honor a local hero or just because it sounded better, nobody on the planet would give a shit.

When they rename a street to honor a hero, they generally do that for a block or so and use both names.

People are still angry that Kilby Street's name was changed to whatever it was changed to, that Crystal Park became University Park, and so on. Just talk to any New Yorker over a certain age about 6th Ave vs. Avenue of the Americas and you'll encounter a strong opinion.

If they came and said, "We want to renamed Grafton Street because it just doesn't roll off the tongue well," do you think people wouldn't care?!

So what, what's the reason for changing the name? Who exactly has a problem with just leaving it as it is?!

5

Kirbyoto t1_irxk9ud wrote

>Currently, I'm waiting for feedback on a document I need to process. Not much else to do.

OK so when you have free time it's normal but when "the medical school" has people with free time it's obviously a sign that something's wrong. Sure dude.

>Just to be clear, street names don't matter

Yes. Like I literally don't care if they change it or not. It is meaningless. But watching people like you freak out about it is frankly pathetic. You guys are so desperate for victimhood while decrying it in others.

>Well, the first picture Wikipedia shows for "plantation"

You mean the same Wikipedia page that says plantations are extensively linked with slavery in the American colonies, and even today plantations are associated with para-slavery? Wow, great investigative work. Really cracked the case with that one.

>People are still angry that Kilby Street's name was changed to whatever it was changed to, that Crystal Park became University Park, and so on. Just talk to any New Yorker over a certain age about 6th Ave vs. Avenue of the Americas and you'll encounter a strong opinion.

When you say "people" you mean a handful of people like you with too much time on their hands and too much self-importance bemoaning how much everything is changing and it's all so difficult. So yes, all those people are pathetic too. I suggest you get a hobby or something since you apparently have so much free time on your hands that you need to vice-signal about street names to show how much you don't care about racism or whatever. I, for one, do actually have better things to do than listen to you rant.

2

[deleted] OP t1_irxpugs wrote

>OK so when you have free time it's normal but when "the medical school" has people with free time it's obviously a sign that something's wrong. Sure dude.

You understand that the people at the medical school are doing this as part of their actual job, right? The request is made by the medical school.

>Yes. Like I literally don't care if they change it or not. It is meaningless. But watching people like you freak out about it is frankly pathetic. You guys are so desperate for victimhood while decrying it in others.

Again, people don't like when names are changed for no reason. I gave you other examples, but you jump to "victimhood." I know it's trendy in your circles to think that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a far-right extremist, and that it's somehow a "win" to use "victimhood" against such a group, but this type of argumentation doesn't advance your cause. It's an unnecessary annoyance, and you're simply being dishonest when you say that street names don't matter.

>You mean the same Wikipedia page that says plantations are extensively linked with slavery in the American colonies, and even today plantations are associated with para-slavery? Wow, great investigative work. Really cracked the case with that one.

Yes, that article. By definition, plantations are simply crop-bearing areas with houses on them. Everything was a plantation before they started getting called "farms" in the North, well after Quinsigamond Plantation, for which the street was named, came into existence.

>When you say "people" you mean a handful of people like you with too much time on their hands and too much self-importance bemoaning how much everything is changing and it's all so difficult. So yes, all those people are pathetic too. I suggest you get a hobby or something since you apparently have so much free time on your hands that you need to vice-signal about street names to show how much you don't care about racism or whatever. I, for one, do actually have better things to do than listen to you rant.

You unironically call me pathetic and in need of a hobby because I'm engaged online on the same website that you're engaged in.

I'm guessing you don't actually interact with people outside academia, but if you do, you'll find people who are old enough to remember Crystal Park being called Crystal Park resenting its renaming, that people are split on Kilby Street. Try engaging with the public.

2

Itchy_Rock_726 t1_is3ectm wrote

Mr "you need to get a hobby" to OP and others....I see you have one...engaging like a mofo trying to score points owning the local 'conservatives.' you are so invested in this discussion. Which is fine....just don't try to throw out that line to your opponents when you're this invested yourself.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_iryo3ys wrote

UMASS Medical complex sits on what was once a farm. It was the "poor farm" for the city's indigent of all races. Later it was a therapeutic farm for patients at the Worcester State Hospital. Both groups were cared for, housed and fed. Those groups now make up Worcester's homeless. Put your money where your mouth is UMASS and do something about real problems not some BS feel good renaming of a street.

4

Kirbyoto t1_iryqxld wrote

>Put your money where your mouth is UMASS and do something about real problems not some BS feel good renaming of a street.

Do you imagine this is an either/or scenario? If the street continues to be named "Plantation St", do you think this will help poor people and homeless people get help faster? Do you imagine that UMASS is choosing between feeding the homeless and renaming a street?

You can say it's a pointless publicity stunt, and I'd probably agree. But you're acting like renaming the street is somehow preventing them from giving aid to the homeless. It isn't. It's not even their street to rename, they're just saying that the city government should do it.

2

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_is5t1t4 wrote

I was pointing out the tiresome tilting at windmills that virtue signaling is. Don't you think that renaming a street in the name of social justice is a bit of a stretch? I can think of a million more things that are actually important that mostly get lip service. Worcester once effectively took care of the indigent and the insane on the acreage where UMASS stands, Do you think the individual who thought renaming the street was necessary even knows this? At the moment we are dealing with historic inflation and are headed into a bitter winter. The homeless are in a perpetual struggle and these two things will effect them more than any other segment of the population this year. I don't think Plantation St is on their list of things to worry about.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is5ucbs wrote

>I was pointing out the tiresome tilting at windmills that virtue signaling is. Don't you think that renaming a street in the name of social justice is a bit of a stretch? I can think of a million more things that are actually important that mostly get lip service.

Complaining about them renaming a street is just as stupid as fighting for the street to be renamed. Caring about this in any capacity is equally pointless. You can't talk about "tilting at windmills" when this is the kind of shit you get mad about.

>At the moment we are dealing with historic inflation and are headed into a bitter winter. The homeless are in a perpetual struggle and these two things will effect them more than any other segment of the population this year. I don't think Plantation St is on their list of things to worry about.

And yet it's on YOUR list of things to worry about, because you're here on the internet complaining about it instead of helping homeless people. So explain to me why it's different and why you don't have any obligation to spend your time wisely. I guarantee you have spent exactly as much time thinking about this as the UMASS personnel who submitted the proposal to city hall - which, by the way, was voted down anyways.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_is8q5sx wrote

I was born and raised in Worcester but no longer live there but am appalled by the number of homeless there. I have a New Years ritual, every January I visit the Second Chance Animal Shelters and make a donation then trek to Worcester to Abby's House and Catholic Charities and donate at both. I wish I could do more but I'm retired and on a fixed income.

1

Kirbyoto t1_isb835g wrote

That's very nice of you. It also, again, has basically nothing to do with the topic at hand. UMASS was not choosing between "proposing a street name change" and "doing charity".

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_isck5v7 wrote

You said that I ought to be doing something about homelessness, I am, whereas some feel good BS renaming a street accomplishes what? So much oxygen is wasted on the whole woke thing. I agree with a lot of the issues but see what's actually being done as empty rhetoric. If it were something truly racist and offensive rather than a semantic dust up, who could argue with that? I wouldn't but I have to question UMASS's motives, capiche?

1

Kirbyoto t1_iscnf8n wrote

>You said that I ought to be doing something about homelessness, I am

I said "you're here on the internet complaining about it instead of helping homeless people", which is still true. The fact that you take some time out of your life to help homeless people is very admirable, but it doesn't take up 100% of your time. You have time to do other things, just like people at UMASS do. So if you accept that you're allowed to have time to do things besides help homeless people, guess what? So are they.

>So much oxygen is wasted on the whole woke thing

You're wasting it too! This is my point. You complain about "wasting time" but you are also wasting time in the exact same way. You could be helping homeless people right now, but you aren't. You're too busy wasting oxygen. People who post on Reddit frankly forfeit the right to use terms like "waste of time" because none of us actually care about our time.

>If it were something truly racist and offensive rather than a semantic dust up, who could argue with that?

Dude if it was the fucking Ku Klux Klan Boulevard guys like you would still be complaining about how it's "woke posturing" to try to change the name and how difficult it would be for the inhabitants of KKK Blvd to change their address labels.

1

New-Vegetable-1274 t1_isddr13 wrote

KKK guys like me? Nice. Well at least it confirms what kind of guy you are. " Ku Klux Klan Boulevard guys like you" tells me all I need to know about you.

1

Kirbyoto t1_isewfhu wrote

>KKK guys like me?

No, guys who only pretend to care about street names when those street names happen to represent any sort of conservative history. There would always be an excuse. The arguments you used to defend "Plantation St" would be used to defend any other sort of conservative street name too.

>Well at least it confirms what kind of guy you are.

I'm a guy who can recognize patterns, and in this case the pattern is that people only came out of the woodwork to care about a city issue when they detected the smell of "wokeness". You don't really care about anything else you're saying, you just see "wokeness" and you want it removed. You don't give a shit about wasted oxygen or helping the homeless or whatever. "I help the homeless once a year, therefore UMASS shouldn't be allowed to change a street name" is a hilariously incomprehensible statement and yet it is effectively the real argument you made in this discussion.

1

Itchy_Rock_726 t1_is3dom3 wrote

How about you? Anything better to do than fire off blow by blow retorts to OP? Cut the shit. So lame.

1

Kirbyoto t1_is5miib wrote

>Anything better to do than fire off blow by blow retorts to OP?

I don't think my time is particularly valuable, which is why I didn't start this discussion off by talking about people wasting their time. I'm happy to admit that I waste my time by talking to morons like you.

1

Cheap_Coffee t1_iry1k1f wrote

>Just stop. Stop trying to be offended by everything. Just. Stop.

That's funny.

2

Hiram508 t1_iryko98 wrote

If, this is actually an issue in your life, you really need to look at your life. The WORD, Plantation, doesn't ONLY mean a Southern slave owning Plantation. So, PLEASE, take a moment and seriously look at yourself in a mirror. And, if you ACTUALLY think this is an ACTUAL problem. Then, guess what? Your not only Stupid. But, worse, your an actual Stupid Asshole.

10

[deleted] OP t1_irz9ohf wrote

Dafuq? What about Plymouth Plantation? Prior to 1800, it meant a farm of any size.

While we’re at it, can we boycott “The Woman King” because the Kingdom of Dahomey was the largest supplier of Africans into the trans Atlantic slave trade? No? No one cares? Ok, gotcha.

9

[deleted] OP t1_irzbc0f wrote

You're not going to believe this, but, I just googled and they've changed the name of Plimouth Plantation to "Plimoth Patuxet," whatever that means.

7

[deleted] OP t1_irzbh3d wrote

That’s hilarious! Lol idk why it’s so funny to me but it is. No meaning whatsoever

4

Cheap_Coffee t1_is0zbyv wrote

I bet if you visited there you'd learn what that means.

2

SKRuBAUL t1_irytefz wrote

I don't tend to have a strong opinion on these sorts of things, but this feels like nonsense so some idiots can fill bureaucracies with pointless debate and busy work to pay themselves on the back. Why not leave the fucking street name alone and go try to fix problems with traffic and road quality?

You have a problem with the word "plantation" and only associate it with negative connotations? Promote a dialog with your friends and family about how words carry various meanings in certain contexts. Do not waste a single cent of tax payer money on committee meetings and opinion polls and, god forbid you actually get your way, new street signs, property signs, and updates to all the maps and other resources where the name appears.

7

UniqueCartel t1_is11wzm wrote

Make UMass pay for the change. Not the residents of the city. That means setting up an office from 7am -7pm 7 days a week with a representative dedicated to help the residents change all their licenses, utility bills, credit card bills, and everything else. Keep it open for 1 year. Force door to door visits to engage the residents for the assistance. Hire multiple reps who speak all the languages found on Plantation Street. Then see how committed UMass is to this cause.

6

AceOfTheSwords t1_is2tsjp wrote

Is this a service the city had to provide with the last big street name change (MLK Jr Blvd)?

2

CatumEntanglement t1_is30dvg wrote

Nope. Plus then-named Central Street was mainly zoned for businesses; private residents weren't living on the street. Plus it's a very short street. It was chosen for the MLK name change because it wouldn't disrupt many people. Plantation otoh is a 4mile long street and includes lots of large apartment complexes. The number of private residents who would have to spend a lot of time and money on the street change is in the multiple hundreds. It is not an insignificant ask and burden for people, who I might add are majority POC. UMass gets to rebrand the street for themselves while the burden of cost-to-cjange goes to the taxpayers of Worcester and doubly to all the residents of plantation.

3

UniqueCartel t1_is7ems1 wrote

No. What I’m saying is that UMass should be held to provide this service given the impact and since it’s their request

1

Karen1968a t1_irxagib wrote

I’m guessing that if you dig deep enough you can find a racist connotation to almost any street name (ok, maybe not Pleasant St. ). It’s overkill and foolish.

5

InevitableUsual4126 t1_iry29vh wrote

Its 100% virtue signaling. We need to focus our energy and resources on things like the trash covered streets, high taxes, the increasing unaffordability of the area, drugs and crime.

5

howard_mandel t1_iry6n7w wrote

How does changing a street name really use that much energy or resource? There’s literally no downside to it

2

whatdoiwantsky t1_iryarz0 wrote

It seems to me that that poster doesn't understand how government works. I see this a lot with conservatives swayed by punditry. The government isn't a corner lemonade stand. It can handle addressing multiple major matters and lesser at the same time!! Magic!!

4

[deleted] OP t1_iryelxg wrote

Ask someone who lives on the street how much of their personal info we'll have to change. Then multiply that by thousands of people.

2

UniqueCartel t1_is0wlif wrote

Yeah this is probably my biggest issue with it. Although I don’t live on that street it is one of Worcester’s longest streets. It’s not at all comparable to the Yawkey way issue in Boston. Because the Red Sox were the primary owners of property on that street in addition to a handful of restaurants and a 7-Eleven. Whereas plantation Street is home to probably well over 1000 residents

3

Zaius1968 t1_irywrrp wrote

What is it named for? If the connection has nothing to do with Plantations proper or slavery there is no need to change it. It’s all about intent.

5

[deleted] OP t1_irz0msy wrote

The original settlement here was called Quinsigamond Plantation. Prior to the early 1800s, farms in general were called plantations (per Wikipedia's "Plantation" article).

9

hawilder t1_irz85c2 wrote

Hmmm maybe some rich person wants to donate money but doesn’t like the name of the road. Never imagined the med school would change it’s name but donation money did that…

I do not think it should happen.

5

LumpyTown4103 t1_is06iwm wrote

I personally don’t mind the street name but we can do something with them damn potholes , now that would be a problem worth fixing

5

KansaiKanpai t1_ismy7pj wrote

For real Massachusetts as a whole has probably the worst roads I have ever driven on in my life.

1

Watchfull_Hosemaster t1_irybtvq wrote

Who's behind this? Did UMass receive complaints from people about how they were offended by the name of the street or is this one of those situations where some eggheaded higher-ups want to put forth an empty gesture and pat themselves on the back?

​

I highly doubt that there are more than a handful of people that care or are somehow hurt by the name of Plantation Street.

​

This is one of those instances where an institution of some sort feels the need to create an issue where one never really existed just so they can pontificate and virtue signal.

3

Watchfull_Hosemaster t1_iryccv0 wrote

Whoever is behind this wants to feel good about themselves for when they drive back to Shrewsbury or some other town to attend a planning board hearing to oppose the affordable housing development across town so they don't have to deal with the riff-raff coming in.

​

The people behind this likely live in towns that resemble modern day plantations. Large suburban homes sprawling along streets with names like Fox Run, Vista View, Pine Ledge Drive, etc. where half of the residents have hired help that come in from Worcester, Fitchburg, and other areas these do-gooder/do-nothingers would never find themselves in.

6

UniqueCartel t1_is0w8u0 wrote

It’s the guy who works at UMass’s business/PR rep who petitioned for the change. I’m sure he had support from the school’s board or chancellor or whatever the appropriate office is. I won’t name him, because I think he’s a good guy, and it might not be his baby. Could be something he was told to do. Idk

3

mikehermetic t1_irylhkd wrote

Let's rename it Affordable Healthcare For All Blvd.

3

jammer45 t1_irylt0v wrote

Why is it racist ? What do you think plantations did after the war ? Change t all their names to Walmart and hire illegal aliens. The word plantation in itself is not racist. Jesus man. When's all this going to stop

3

[deleted] OP t1_iryyprp wrote

I don't think it's a racist word. I was just stating the argument - should have put quotes.

3

Hot-Incident-3127 t1_is08ld5 wrote

I grew up on Plantation Street, learn some history of the city before you jump on the woke train.

3

NightNday78 t1_is0x7pw wrote

Minorities are over this bare minimum bs.

Stop distracting yourself with peripheral nonsense “issues” and put this energy on frequently requested plights.

Thank you

3

UniqueCartel t1_is12c1v wrote

Also submit a petition to change Salisbury Street’s name. See how far that gets. Then tell me this petition isn’t itself a practice of privilege impacting marginalized communities the most. Think you’ll get far as far changing Salisbury Street than you will Plantation?

3

teasea02 t1_irxac1o wrote

How Dare you use the word “oppression” in a post!

2

thisisntmynametoday t1_irymrzq wrote

Back in 2007 Worcester started the process to rename Central St. to MLK Jr. Boulevard. It’s funny how a lot of the arguments against renaming Plantation St. are echoes from opposition to creating MLK Jr. Boulevard. The talking point about “cost” of changing personal info being unfair is identical.

Quinsigamond Plantation was part of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade. Nipmuc and Wampanoags were imprisoned and enslaved during and after King Philip’s War. Many of them were peaceful Christian converts who had no connection to the war, and were rounded up by angry and scared colonists (who then profited from taking their lands).

I recommend “Our Beloved Kin” by Lisa Brooks for an excellent and detailed retelling of that conflict.

Pushing back against slavery is a Worcester historical tradition. There is a long history of abolitionist activism in Worcester, along with it being a stop in the Underground Railroad. This follows our history.

Ultimately this is a small and minor symbolic change. But language does matter. Ultimately, it will be a minor inconvenience when it does change.

2

[deleted] OP t1_irz01wz wrote

Hardly anyone lives on Central Street, now MLK, Jr., Blvd. There are thousands and thousands of people on Plantation. My apartment complex alone must have hundreds of people. Then there's the other apartment complex, and the people on Plantation Lane and Court, which are also supposed to be changed.

Maybe people just don't like changing street names in general, no? Again: Kilby Street had its name changed because it was perceived to be associated with crime. People didn't like that. People still don't like Crystal Park being called University Park. All of those things are very small compared to a very long street like Plantation.

>Quinsigamond Plantation was part of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade.

Source?

The area was called Quinsigamond Plantation even before the Europeans settled here, and the land was purchased from the Nipmuc. It was abandoned for a first time by 1675, less than three years after 30 Europeans settled there.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irz3tv1 wrote

You can’t even comprehend the source you quoted.

“Nipmuc history in what is now Worcester County predates any written records. During the 1600’s, the original inhabitants of Worcester dwelled principally in three locations, Pakachoag, Tataesset (Tatnuck), and Wigwam Hill (N. Lake Ave.). In 1667, four men, among them, Daniel Gookin, surveyed the land the English called Quinsigamond Plantation.”

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[deleted] OP t1_irz59im wrote

Ah, so you did find the part that says it was the English who called it Quinsigamond Plantation.

So...what's your point with this comment and the other comment?

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irz3let wrote

Are you saying Plantation was a Nipmuc word?

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[deleted] OP t1_irz544s wrote

Nice that you've ignored everything I said otherwise so that you could add a snarky comment. To further spell out the glaringly obvious, however, let me repeat my comment with a clarification:

Hardly anyone lives on Central Street, now MLK, Jr., Blvd. There are thousands and thousands of people on Plantation. My apartment complex alone must have hundreds of people. Then there's the other apartment complex, and the people on Plantation Lane and Court, which are also supposed to be changed.

Maybe people just don't like changing street names in general, no? Again: Kilby Street had its name changed because it was perceived to be associated with crime. People didn't like that. People still don't like Crystal Park being called University Park. All of those things are very small compared to a very long street like Plantation.

>Quinsigamond Plantation was part of the Trans Atlantic Slave trade.

Source?

The area was called by the British Quinsigamond Plantation even before the Europeans settled here, and the land was purchased from the Nipmuc. It was abandoned for a first time by 1675, less than three years after 30 Europeans settled there.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irz72an wrote

The British are Europeans. They were the colonists who settled here and added Plantation to the Nipmuc name Quinsigamond.

You can keep repeating the stuff you googled. Doesn’t mean you are correct.

If however you can produce the linguistic derivation of the word Plantation and show originated in the Algonquian languages, then maybe you have a point.

I won’t hold my breath waiting for that moment though.

Until then, the issue is the word Plantation.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz9fw8 wrote

>The British are Europeans.

Next you'll explain to me how the British live on an island just north of the European mainland.

>They were the colonists who settled here and added Plantation to the Nipmuc name Quinsigamond.

Let me try to explain this very clearly: before these British people, a subset of Europeans, settled on the land, they were already calling it Quinsigamond Plantation.

Does that help?

>If however you can produce the linguistic derivation of the word Plantation and show originated in the Algonquian languages, then maybe you have a point.

Never claimed there was any relationship to any Algonquin language, because there is not, and, even if there were, it would be irrelevant to the point, which is that the term "plantation" was being used (by the British, okay? And they are Europeans, despite their protestations) before they even settled there. Therefore, this means that the word "plantation" was applied to the area by someone well before there was slavery in the area, so it is impossible that the name is derived in any way from slavery. We also know that "plantation' was a term that was generally used for farms before the 1800s.

>Until then, the issue is the word Plantation.

People are connecting slavery to the word even though the word was clearly in use before any of the people who could have possibly brought slavery arrived in the area, and despite the fact that "plantation" meant any sort of farm-type area at the time it was first applied.

The issue is that some DEI type wants to stir up drama and cost the city tens of thousands of dollars, greatly increase residents, and just cause confusion because they want to retrofit their understanding of the word "plantation" ahistorically.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irzb9qq wrote

While you’re at it, Google Indian Slavery in New England. And English plantations in the Caribbean.

See if any of that happened before English settlements in Quinsigamond.

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[deleted] OP t1_irzbq53 wrote

None of it has anything to do with the specific use of the word "plantation." which simply meant "farm" when it was introduced here. If you're honest, you have to admit that your argument isn't with the term "plantation,' but with any name associated with the settlers, which is, pretty much, most of the non-Native American names. So why not just be honest and say you want to rename the most of the city?

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irzau38 wrote

Where do you think the colonists who started the Massachusetts Bay Colony and Plymouth Colony came from?

I’ll wait while you Google it.

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[deleted] OP t1_irzbl5w wrote

You're stretching and stretching to somehow connect "Plantation" to slavery. Your argument is, essentially, "the word 'Plantation' is connected to the people who settled the area, so it's therefore connected to slavery and must be changed." Guess what? So is "Worcester" and so is "Pilgrim" and so is "Puritan" and so are a million other names around here.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irzdgs6 wrote

Your original argument is that Plantation shouldn’t be an offensive name here in Worcester, thanks to five minutes of googling that introduced you to the words Quinsigamond Plantation.

I’ve pointed out the main flaw in your argument, namely that English colonists here in Worcester and Massachusetts actively enslaved Nipmuc people, (also Pequots, Narragansetts, Wampanoags, etc.) They were sold to large sugar plantations in the Caribbean.

So sure, a Pilgrim called his farm a plantation, and you, the amateur Google historian thinks that was harmless, not one of the ‘bad plantations’. But that same Pilgrim also stole that land and either killed or enslaved the original inhabitants, or waited for them to die from an imported European disease so he could have that ‘plantation.’

You can’t understand history from 5 minutes of Google searches. Read some books instead.

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[deleted] OP t1_irzfhsw wrote

>You can’t understand history from 5 minutes of Google searches. Read some books instead.

Maybe you should read something besides A People's History of the United States. I assure you; it would be illuminating.

Again, you're going round and round, pushing away from the word "plantation" to anything connected to the original settlers who - and one doesn't need vast knowledge to learn this - mistreated the Native Americans, etc. That's because you know that in this context the word "plantation" isn't offensive or reminiscent of anything besides a farm, so you have to say, "Well, the people who gave it that name weren't so good." And, again, I point you to the fact that these very same people named essentially everything around us that doesn't have a Native name. You'll next want to change the name of Rice Square (a settler!), Worcester (named by settlers who conquered the land!), Pilgrim Street (the first settlers!), Puritan Ave (that's what the Pilgrim's were!), and so on. After all "the same Pilgrim" gave all these names. Why the fixation on Plantation Street?

EDIT: Fixed the name of the Zinn title.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_irzj7k1 wrote

Your original argument was that the name Plantation was harmless in the context of Worcester history.

I repeatedly demonstrated the problems with your assumptions based off of cursory Google searches. To do so, I pointed out historical events you hadn’t googled yet.

Now you keep moving the goalposts in an attempt to save face by saying I want to change lots of place names. I don’t. Your misdirection is not working.

If you would care to educate yourself about the colonial history of enslavement I recommend the following books I’ve read on the subject:

Our Beloved Kin - Lisa Brooks This Land Is Their Land - David Silverman The Other Slavery - Andrés Reséndez The Indian Slave Trade - Alan Gallay

And if you’re not inclined to read a book, Frank James’ article “A National Day of Mourning” might help get the points I’m making across in less time.

And for the record, it’s a People’s History of the United States, not a People’s History of America. If you had read that book, maybe you might not have shown your ignorance of colonial history on a public forum. Zinn does briefly cover Massachusetts colonial history in the first chapter.

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[deleted] OP t1_is0nrtm wrote

Whatever. You started off with "Quinsigamond Plantation was part of the trans-Atlantic slave trade," which implies that it was something more than just some outpost and was actually used for the slave trade. But then when I asked for a source, you started in with posts about, "Plantation isn't a Nipmuc word!" and went after a vagary in what I wrote, suggesting that I didn't know the British were Europeans or that the Europeans gave it the name, all trying to move away from the actual point, which was that the word "plantation" in this context had no connection to the slave plantations of the south and entirely pre-dates them.

Now you're telling me, "Oh, you should learn things, durr durr," in response to me pointing out that your logic leads to the word "plantation" being offensive only insofar as every single other colonial name is offensive.

And sorry I mis-named the book I read and found overly superficial decades ago while quickly typing at very odd hours this morning.

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thisisntmynametoday t1_is3571v wrote

This is the progress of your “not all plantations” argument. All of these points are demonstrably false, as outlined in many of the books I’ve posted previously.

❌ The area was called Quinsigamond Plantation even before the Europeans settled here. —> ❌Let me try to explain this very clearly: before these British people, a subset of Europeans, settled on the land, they were already calling it Quinsigamond Plantation. —> ❌Therefore, this means that the word "plantation" was applied to the area by someone well before there was slavery in the area, so it is impossible that the name is derived in any way from slavery. We also know that "plantation' was a term that was generally used for farms before the 1800s.

Actual history: The Europeans who settled here were English colonists from Plymouth and Massachusetts Bay Colonies. There was no previous use of the word Plantation in Quinsigamond prior to colonization here. The only people here were Nipmuc and other native tribes. They certainly weren’t using the word plantation.

Multiple tribes were attacked and sold into slavery by the colonists. The first mass sale of Pequots happened in 1637. Some were kept domestically, most were sold to sugar plantations in the Caribbean. Also, the first slave auction in the colonies happened in 1619 in Virginia. Plantations weren’t “just farms” until 1800, when things magically changed in your unsourced Wikipedia article.

Sources: Our Beloved Kin - Lisa Brooks This Land Is Their Land - David J. Silverman

This is a small symbolic change with minor implications. Manufacturing a ton of outrage and defending plantations illuminates the mindset of its proponents.

Ultimately we should work on larger structural changes to benefit people whose families have been damaged by slavery and plantations, but I’m pretty sure you aren’t ready for that conversation.

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[deleted] OP t1_is5xrqu wrote

Bro, it's obvious what the guy is saying: the British Europeans claimed the land and called it Quinsigamond Plantation before they had settlers there.

Why do you keep citing those books? They don't prove anything. The other commenter(s) is/are right. If you want to say "plantation" is a problem, it's not because of the reason that the school stated. They talked about the connotations of the word, which bring up antebellum slavery, but you're talking about the way colonists behaved toward Native Americans. The guy who said the logic of "plantation" also applies to many other names is right and you don't even respond to that. You just repeat what you said on a different comment.

What did the city councilor representing the district say yesterday at the meeting of the city council?

>He said that a name change would require the roughly 6,700 residents and 100 businesses on Plantation Street, Plantation Parkway and Plantation Terrace to change legal and identification documents, change official addresses and go through all sorts of other hassles at considerable expense...
>
>

“It just isn’t fair,’ Russell continued. “It could have been a moment for this community to come together — and hope it is in the future — but all this petition does is inconvenience people on Plantation Street and mobilize people into their respective political corners.”

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Gahlic1 t1_irz8zhk wrote

I have no idea what you're talking about. No jail, no juvi on Plantation St in Worcester.

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General-Efficiency-1 t1_is0ceoz wrote

This is so fucking stupid, what's racist is that we have a growing homeless population mostly of African american descent and other minority groups that the city doesn't do enough for. That's racist. We need to stop caring about small stuff and change the real problems that will actually make a difference in people's lives. Changing plantation street's name is just one reason why the right side of the aisle hates the left. All we do is virtue signal stupidity and don't take care of the real problems in the community.

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UniqueCartel t1_is0uu22 wrote

My opinion, for anyone interested, is go ahead and change it. It’ll be a logistical headache for everyone on that street because it’s one of the longest streets in Worcester. But do it anyway, because what’s the point in arguing against it? You’re just going to sound racist because you’re arguing to keep something that someone else said is a racist thing. So now it’s this weird fucking stand-off between people with no proof that it’s racist and people with no proof that it’s not racist. So it just become another thing to yell about. So just change it. My suggestion to the city council would be to change it quickly with zero fanfare and pageantry. An affirmative vote by the council with no discussion should take 5 seconds. And move on and be done with it. Moreover, although I give flaccid support to the change I’ll offer that the word plantation in this context is not a reference to old southern slave plantations as is the stated reason from the petition. In this case plantation is derivative from “Quinsigamond plantation” which was the former village that Worcester used to be. That village was an English settlement which was burned to the ground during the king Philip war. So if we are to be offended by the name of plantation street, it’s not due to the history of racism suffered by African-Americans it is actually the atrocities carried out by the English settlers against the natives. So, although the petition seeks to change the name of the street because of the country’s history, it’s actually more appropriate to cite the actual history of Worcester. I doubt the Nipmuc tribes or Wampanoags were asked about the change.

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jonpknight t1_is1916x wrote

Tell me this is somebody’s poor idea of a joke……

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howard_mandel t1_iry6j7y wrote

Ive said it for years. We need to change it.

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ChipOnMaShoulder t1_iry76zf wrote

Bruh. You guys ever been to Plantation Street? I feel like there are some other things they can do there that should be higher on the list of priorities.

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FinancialCharacter21 t1_iryhs7r wrote

What about the folks in Florida living in Plantation, FL right outside of Fort Lauderdale? Should we change the the city’s name? Stupid.

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_no_mans_land_ t1_iryku5r wrote

I think we should keep it cause it’s funny.

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Karen1968a t1_is5m0ve wrote

Well the council killed it. At least for now, but it was interesting that a lot of the discussion was around how UMASS didn’t talk to anyone (residents or council) before bringing it up.

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FirstOrderRouge t1_iryazos wrote

Plantations still exist in non racist ways ya know.

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Loislayna1982 t1_iryqxwo wrote

I didn’t move there bc of the name

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[deleted] OP t1_irz0emx wrote

I find that really hard to believe, and extremely weird.

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Loislayna1982 t1_irz0kns wrote

I’m not sure why it would be hard to believe that a name like that isn’t one I want to share as my address for the exact reasons you point to in the post.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz0uyi wrote

Because who does that?

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Loislayna1982 t1_irz16ol wrote

Clearly people do. You aren’t everyone. I know this is shocking.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz2r4x wrote

Yeah, I looked at your profile. Some kind of petty bourgeois socialist.

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Loislayna1982 t1_irz4k2f wrote

I really don’t give a solitary shit about your opinions. You solicited opinions. I shared a thing. If you grew up with that street it may not give you a moments pause. If you didn’t, its concerning. Thats what the item you posted is highlighting. I don’t care if you agree. You have every right not to. But its false to say no one thinks xyz. They do.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz5lle wrote

Obviously I didn't mean "no one" literally. There's you and the guy who wrote the report. The are hundreds of thousands of people in the city, though, so statistically speaking, no one is offended. Even those few people who actually are offended are generally, as demonstrated, petty bourgeois, upper-middle-class liberals who are mostly white.

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Loislayna1982 t1_irz4prs wrote

You agreeing or not also is highly unlikely to determine the outcome. But you are entitled not to. You’re not entitled to dismiss opinions you requested.

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[deleted] OP t1_irz602c wrote

Therein lies the problem. I'm a person who grew up here, has paid taxes here, and, apart from 20 years or so on the West Coast, spent most of my time so far here. And yet what I think is going to be far less valued than what some "inclusion" "experts" at a medical school think. Also not valued: the opinion of the overwhelming majority of the city's Black community, who have never, ever raised this as an issue.

EDIT: Alas, the ideologue has issued her opinion and then blocked me.

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Loislayna1982 t1_irze1gx wrote

I’m glad you speak for everyone, including the black community. Particularly on a post where you solicited opinions you can’t handle.

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