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Internauta29 t1_itjlwsu wrote

Reply to comment by jefrye in The way people speak in The Count of Monte Cristo. Can someone explain? by foxdna

> So, here's the thing with French: the language has both informal/singular (tu) and formal/plural (vous) forms of "you," which does not exist in English but is kind of a big deal in French. (Some parts of the US do kind of have a plural form of "you" with "y'all," but that's not relevant here.)

All romance languages have an informal pronoun, "you", and a formal pronoun, "vous", to address people. English used to have it too if I'm not mistaken, as "thou" was the informal "you" and "you" was actually formal.

As for characters' eloquence, fully agree. It also gets worse/better depending on your preference the further back you go in French, Spanish, Italian. Troubadours wrote incomprehensible poetry for the average person nowadays, Dante made literal homeless people speak the highest form of language expressions. I honestly like it a lot, but that's just me. I think it can be an acquired taste for other people.

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nim_opet t1_itjq30g wrote

All Slavic and Germanic languages except for English and Swedish have it too.

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Sabbath90 t1_itknqv5 wrote

We did have it in Sweden but it fell out of fashion mid 1900's, now people will look at you funny if you use the formal/plural "ni" when speaking to someone. Unless it's the king, that's the one exception.

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nim_opet t1_itkqvyx wrote

Oh well, at least for the King then :)

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Sacred_Root t1_itk0m44 wrote

English does but isn't emphasized as much as in the romance languages. Also probably why the non-binary movement is so big in the US, also.

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nim_opet t1_itk1bcm wrote

What does non-binary have to do with distinction between singular and plural “you”?

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Sacred_Root t1_itk1l5g wrote

That's one of their reasonings for the non binary pronouns.

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nim_opet t1_itk5fzw wrote

No it isn’t. Gendered pronouns have nothing to do with 2nd person plural one.

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Sacred_Root t1_itkkc1m wrote

You misunderstood what I was saying and i have no invested interest in trying to explain it to you. Idgaf about the topic enough to care either way.

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Sacred_Root t1_itk1sd3 wrote

Identifying by they/them instead of he or she.

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nim_opet t1_itk5ixt wrote

None of that has anything to do with the polite version of “you”. Those are genders of third person personal pronouns. The “tu/vous” distinction is specifically about the 2nd person pronoun and how it changes in singular vs. plural. 2nd person pronoun is not gendered.

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Sacred_Root t1_itkjrkj wrote

Tell them that. Not me. You misunderstood what I was saying, anyway.

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Nice_Sun_7018 t1_itl66a0 wrote

I guess we all misunderstood you then lol. “They/them” is in use because English doesn’t have a gender-neutral singular pronoun. If we did, we would use it. Since we don’t, we use the plural gender-neutral term (and we have always done this when the gender of the singular subject is unknown, too, not just for non-binary people).

This, as others have tried to tell you, has nothing to do with a language having a formal versus non-formal word for “you” (which typically comes in both singular and plural forms).

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Emily_Ge t1_itjpl9h wrote

Yea they had both a long time ago, German kept Du/Sie.

Same with Dutch, but Dutch is much further on the path to unification of the two, German not so much.

Also both German and Dutch are moving towards only using the informal jij/je/Du instead of English which went with the formal as the standard form.

In German the two are still used pretty much, and you‘ll have twenty year olds saying Sie to other twenty year olds in formal settings. While in Dutch it‘s virtually disused under forty.

Also in German formal Settings there‘s still some rules about the higher ranking person offering the informal first before those get used like again in a business context, whereas in Dutch the change is basically fluid, going to informal from formal ‚on your own‘.

Though it very much depends on individual culture, like the German internet does not use Sie. Unless you got an utterly clueless lunatic on eBay Kleinanzeigen thinking they are being disrespected.

Same way that I’ve never had any complaints for just using the informal at work for anyone under 40 either.

And meeting someone outside of business/bureaucracy going informal is pretty much standard, unless it‘s a 90 year old neighbor still running on the old ruleset.

Also I find the informal variant extremely disrespectful (and am not alone with that interpretation) because it creates a massive ‚distance‘ and is usually used in dehumanizing context anyway.

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Cautious_Ad8025 t1_itjugc5 wrote

So you everyone just uses the informal and it’s cool, but you personally find this very offensive?

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mongreldogchild t1_itklxkw wrote

Not really a crazy take. I have had three friends who are Spanish speakers, for instance, who found formal language directed at them disrespectful because it's like "I don't know you". There's a certain "distance" that can be read as disrespect or insult, there.

I'm not sure, because I don't speak the languages the other replier knows about, but the "distance" they are talking about could be that the informal version has a dehumanizing context like calling someone else "it" instead of "they/he/she". Languages evolve, so as these languages evolve there's going to be a wide range of discourse on it.

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Internauta29 t1_itkgiqw wrote

All very interesting information, thank you.

Personally, I can speak for romance languages and English because those are the ones I currently speak abd have an insight on their culture.

English is the least formal in pronouns, but this only shifts the burden of formality to the whole rest of the phrase with specific verbs or constructions preference in a formal setting, which adds subtlety and nuance but also makes it harder to master than, say, French where it's a pretty straightforward distinction, though of course you still have to modulate your tone and language to a certain degree.

Spanish is nore forgiving than French linguistically, not as much culturally as you can still feel the old dons culture of respect in lots of Spanish speaking countries, so you need to tread carefully with your language and mostly with your actions so as not to be rude.

Italian is kind of a mixed bag. The distinction used to be very similar to French with "tu" being informal "you", and "voi" being formal "you". It's very old fashioned though as nowadays people use "lei", 3rd person pronoun, to express formal "you". I'd say most of the rules you mentioned in German culture apply to Italian culture too. There's generally a shift to more informal language, but in business, bureaucracy, university, government, and anything professional really, you're strongly advised to be formal. Good etiquette suggests you refer formally to older people and superiors, strangers too, especially the older you are. Older people tend to be much more formal and keep it that way until they have a close relationship with the person they're speaking to, though back in the days they would never have shifted to informal language even in this case. If you're on the younger end, you generally should never switch to formal language unless prompted by the older person. Younger generations tend to forgo most formal rules apart from the basics, and this contributes to generational divide as older generations think poorly of this kind behaviour.

Personally, I too think people shouldn't just jump to informal as hastily and unprompted as they do, not because I'm keen on social hierarchies based on age, merit, or career. I just think specific settings require a certain behaviour, composure, and decorum. And as someone generally distrustful of others and keen on his personal space, I'm also not fond of the implication of closeness informal language has.

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Verytinynanosomethin t1_itkrwni wrote

It's a bit regional though. In Flemish (Belgian) Dutch, the formal "u" is used significantly more than in the Netherlands (though still not to the extent that the French use it).

It was a bit jarring for me when serving personnel in a restaurant in the Netherlands immediately addressed me as "jij".

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Jack-Campin t1_itk5aw4 wrote

Troubadours wrote in Provençal, not French. Their language is still pretty easy to understand for a modern Provençal or Catalan speaker.

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