People give George R.R. Martin grief for the delay of "The Winds of Winter," but imagine trying to write a continuation of your series after HBO already wrote their own ending to it...

Submitted by SAT0725 t3_z8qyji in books

George R.R. Martin takes a lot of heat for the delay of "The Winds of Winter," the planned next book in the "Game of Thrones" series, but honestly I totally get why it would take him more time to finish. Not only is it just plain hard to write regardless, but at some point the HBO series caught up to the books and they just started making up the story on their own.

As anyone out there who's done any amount of fiction writing will tell you, the stories and ideas and characters often come on their own, from somewhere outside your intentionally trying to figure them out. What happens to that process when another entity like HBO has already taken your story and finished it in another medium? Martin is probably having quite a bit of difficulty working around the influence of the show.

In short, I don't blame him. It's probably way more difficult to finish the book in his position than it would've been without the show.

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wisdommaster1 t1_iycs7w6 wrote

He had like 8 years between the last book and the end of the show.

I had really liked the books but I'm not holding my breath for them to ever get finished

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tehpwarp t1_iyctq5e wrote

They won't get finished.

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SugmaDiction t1_iycuswi wrote

I think they will, but he won’t be the one to do it though.

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Master_Ryan_Rahl t1_iyesuzy wrote

He has been very negative about that point so it really comes down to how serious he is in his legal documents. His estate could sell rights or hire it done but not if he really objects to it.

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Aldehyde1 t1_iyczkkd wrote

I personally think he has no idea how to conclude all of the plotlines he's created and is just stringing fans along at this point while he collects his paycheck from other, smaller projects. When you look at the amount of times the book has apparently been just on the brink of being finished, only to be reportedly farther away several years later, it's hard not to feel cynical. Especially after reading one of his recent blog posts where he changed course and said that ASOF is "bigger than Winds of Winter" and all side projects should be equally respected, I think he's mentally given up on ever finishing the main series. I hope I'm wrong.

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WhenRobLoweRobsLowes t1_iycv8wo wrote

Yeah, he's angling to be another Robert Jordan - dead before he's even close to done.

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ffxivthrowaway03 t1_iycwcrz wrote

I dont think that's a fair comparison at all. Jordan was terminally ill and still desperately trying to finish his books at a regular cadence while literally dying. He also made extensive plans to have the works finished posthumously if he didn't make it.

There's literally no indication that Martin has written a word of this book in nearly a decade, and IIRC he's explicitly said if he kicks it then no one is to ever touch his works.

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WhenRobLoweRobsLowes t1_iyd7093 wrote

Great point. I was leaning on the "die before finished" angle, but you're absolutely right.

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maxsamm t1_iyd6uqk wrote

Yeah, and I enjoyed the game of thrones book. So definitely not like Robert Jordan.

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ExtraArrogantBastard t1_iycu2y1 wrote

Look at it this way: you have a job. You stall and don't deliver what your job requires of you for a decade? or so. Instead you pick up every side gig you think of, so it looks like you are trying hard to do anything but your job. That's George - every side project, no action on the books.

Cam I blame him? Yeah. He has extremely poor work ethic. His updates and excuses can be pulled into a 400 page book at this point. I went from book signings to not caring over 10 years ago.

Do I understand him? Yeah. HBO probably paid a lot more than just selling his books. So did the random trading cards, etc. I would probably make the same choices.

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Altofaltception t1_iycvjjp wrote

And he makes a killing even by not finishing the series.

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ffxivthrowaway03 t1_iycxhrj wrote

In many ways he's likely better off not finishing them. If he finishes them, people will read them and bitch then stop talking about it when they move on to the next thing.

Meanwhile eight years later these GRRM threads still pop up daily. We're still talking about him, which translates into SEO, views, and ultimately purchases.

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ExtraArrogantBastard t1_iyd4dla wrote

But does that translate into purchases? I know I am not buying his next book, and after the way GOT ended I'm not really excited to watch anything related to him. I guess some people will still give him their time, but I won't. The story was good, but not "I remember it 10 years later" good or "I'll re-read several 400 page books" good. Maybe it's just me, but I see it as George abandoning his fans that got him those lucrative contracts in the first place. And that's shitty.

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ffxivthrowaway03 t1_iyd6tqd wrote

You won't, but you weren't going to anyway at this point. They already made their money off of you, you're not the target audience anymore. However there's definitely people who are going to see this thread perpetuated by people like you and I, and go "oh yeah, that show was super big, maybe I should finally watch it. It can't be as bad as they say" or "Wasn't that based on a book? Everyone keeps talking about how different they are, maybe I should read it."

Statistically, most people don't finish watching long series or make it all the way through so their curiosity about why everyone's still talking about this dumpster fire of a series outweighs the fact that it'll likely never be finished or that the show's ending sucked.

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Accomplished-Wolf123 t1_iyemrjq wrote

Looking at the last book, I don’t get why people are so desperate to read more. Things started to fizzle out by book 4.

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Heck_Tate t1_iycxeyk wrote

No no no no no no no.

A Dance with Dragons came out in 2011 when the show was in season 1. I went to a sci-fi and fantasy convention that same year and he read a chapter from Winds of Winter. I don't know where the rest of the book is, but he had it at least partially finished at that time.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iycxn5x wrote

I still feel like it'd screw with your process to suddenly have faces to go with all the characters in your head. Like suddenly you're writing to specific people when before they were your own creations, just in your head.

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NinjaEngineer t1_iyd4q5c wrote

The Harry Potter movies didn't stop JKR from finishing the series. The first movie came out before the fifth book did.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iyd9c0x wrote

> The first movie came out before the fifth book did

To be fair though, by the time the fifth book came out she was probably well into the writing of the last one. It takes forever for publishers to go to print, usually more than a year after the book is finished.

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NinjaEngineer t1_iydfgxl wrote

Not sure that rebuttal helps your point; by your own logic, by the time the first season of Game of Thrones came out, GRRM should've been finishing the last book.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iydr4vw wrote

Eh, different writers have different processes. Seems like I've read interviews with Rowling where she's said she had the whole story in her head almost from the very start.

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Master_Ryan_Rahl t1_iyetih1 wrote

Martin had two strong picks in casting for the show, Sean Bean as Ned Stark and Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister. He got them both obviously.

Martin wrote a ton for television in his career so casting actors for his books was always something he might consider.

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JesusDeBike t1_iycrsvr wrote

The book was already delayed before the last season of GOT. And HBO didn't start making the story on their own, they knew how Martin intended to end the series and reproduced it, Martin would've probably taken another path to get there but the destination is the same.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iycs1kl wrote

> they knew how Martin intended to end the series

Do you have a source on that? I feel like I remember interviews with Martin where he explicitly said he wouldn't have ended it that way...

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TheNextBattalion t1_iycsc13 wrote

...after he saw people's reaction to how it turned out

Was it more the journey than the result that he was repudiating? Hard to say

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OrangeinDorne t1_iycuyv6 wrote

The thing is Dany’s heel turn didn’t have to be as bad as it was in the show. It was rushed and unearned from a character development stand point with how the show handled it.

Given how much George fleshes things out in his books it could still end with Dany torching kings landing but it could be done in a way that didn’t suck. It’s not a bad idea in a vacuum.

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ffxivthrowaway03 t1_iycwqds wrote

Yeah, it could've had more steamy underage rape-turned-enjoyment scenes, like the books!

Uh... wait... erm...

In all seriousness, there was a lot of weird cruft the series cut out from the books for the better. They streamlined certain plot points, cut some of the redundant character bloat, and steered clear of some of the more questionable content Martin shoehorned in there (presumably for "gritty" shock value) that didn't really serve much of a purpose anyway.

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TheNextBattalion t1_iyd8u6f wrote

It wasn't just rushed at the end, it was tamed early on. In the books the heel turn is a slow burn that's telegraphed from the beginning, because we can read her thought processes. In the show she's righteous badass until she isn't.

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Altofaltception t1_iycvfl3 wrote

That's right. I could see it eventually getting to that point but maybe over 3 more seasons or so.

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selfdestruction9000 t1_iyczj0f wrote

He published A Storm of Swords in 2000 then it wasn’t until 2005 that A Feast for Crows came out. When it was published, half of the POVs were cut because the book was too big to be published and he said the next book containing the cut POVs would be published in six months. Then six years later A Dance with Dragons was finally published, and it was only published then because he cut the two big battles (Mereen and Winterfell). Now we are coming up on 12 years since that book and he’s still not close to being finished with The Winds of Winter. I’m sure the show had an impact, but the pattern started long before the show was even in the works.

Then there’s the whole issue of the story still growing and expanding at the end of book 5 when it should be condensing with characters moving into position for the endgame. He’s built an interesting world but it’s clear he wants to keep world-building rather than focusing on the story he set out to tell.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iyd4nbb wrote

> He’s built an interesting world but it’s clear he wants to keep world-building rather than focusing on the story he set out to tell

Unless the world building IS the story

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selfdestruction9000 t1_iydh9qc wrote

And there’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s going to lead to a lot of unfinished stories. ASOIAF will not be finished, the tales of Dunk & Egg will not be finished, and Fire & Blood Part 2 won’t be released (his next book is another retelling of Part 1).

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Hubberbubbler t1_iycwarz wrote

Its a shame. I really want to read them, but im not going to read a series thats likely never to be finished.

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Leramar89 t1_iyd2gbb wrote

Supposedly he's had the ending planned out for ages. He just doesn't seem to know how to get there. It's also been 11 years since Dance came out. It's not the show's fault he's taking so long.

Of course he can take as long as he wants. Hell, he could retire right now and leave the books unfinished if he wanted to. But that doesn't mean people can't still be frustrated that he's not finishing what he's started.

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crazyGauss42 t1_iycurox wrote

I mean... Talking about blame is a bit silly for me in this context. It's his work, his ideas, and his reputation in the end. I dislike the fan entitlement, raging and pressuring the author. On the other hand, if a lot of time passes, people will lose interest... Me personally, I love ASoIaF, but I don't really care anymore. If it gets finished, it gets finished, if not, well, not like there's no other amazing books.

That being said, he was notoriously slow with the books (or was overly optimistic when announcing the next ones) way before the show was even announced. Also, it was his descision that the show gets done. He had to have known that they're going to overrun him, as these things are made faster than the books are written.

So, while I'll never rage at him or rant about the delay of the books, I don't really have much sympathy for his writers block, or whatever it is. It's a bed he's made himself, and it's pretty thickly padded with money, so I don't think it's too hard being George nowadays. :)

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WhenRobLoweRobsLowes t1_iycv4yx wrote

Martin had years - literal years, over a decade - to finish the story how he intended.

The first three books in the series were published over the span of four years. If he had continued at that pace, the whole series would have been done well before the first season of the show dropped.

Even when the show first started in 2011, he could have finished the series well before the final season aired, and it could have been a more faithful adaptation of his intent.

He didn't. He has chosen to drag out the process. He has chosen to work on other projects, as is his right, but he had plenty of opportunities to get it done. He chose not to.

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[deleted] t1_iycvbct wrote

Imagine having millions of dedicated fans that made you the wealthy and famous man you are today and fucking around with side projects and conventions instead of finishing the series they’ve all eagerly awaited for years

Shit, I feel bad if I’m late with a letter of recommendation for an intern I used to supervise or miss a work deadline

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Mobile-Importance-74 t1_iyd66rn wrote

He sold the rights to make the show. He put himself in the position he is in.

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ViniVidiVelcro t1_iydj7ga wrote

He could have written book 6 and 7 any time while the HBO series was being released or not have agreed to the HBO series at all. He certainly had plenty of time to write all his Westeros fake histories which he chose to work on instead of book 6 and 7 of ASOIF. It is what it is. George got his big payday with the HBO series and is going to just write worldbuilding bloat fake histories until his heart’s content.

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hiddikel t1_iycvpvm wrote

I mean... he isn't a great writer, he has killed off most of his main cast as well. Couple that with him working with d&d before they ruined the show and he probably told them how the series ends. And there is a huge and very justified hate for the way it did end.

That means his likely endgame was bran on the throne, but d&d did such a bad job of it that his ending he wanted is sullied in the view of his fans, and he has written himself into a number of corners. No matter what he writes, people will hate it, that can't feel good.

Also, he is ridiculously rich, and doesn't have to write it anymore. He really doesn't have a reason to. He doesn't owe anyone anything and can keep churning out prequel after prequel that nobody asked for if that's what he wants to do.

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Studstill t1_iycw8w3 wrote

"Imagine" pretending this wasn't his fault?

Although, it is notable how insane this was, with a random third party licensing an actively developed IP and ya. literally just writing it themselves.

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Accomplished-Wolf123 t1_iyefdyg wrote

What kind of grief are we talking about? As long as people don’t threaten or harass George, I really don’t see what the problem is.

True, GRRM is not our bitch but doesn’t this work both ways to some extent? If you cultivate a fandom, engage your readers in the writing process, tease out possible progress towards another book (available at a bookstore near you), wouldn’t those people feel like they get to ask some questions?

Mind you, the point is academic by now, I doubt anyone really cares anymore.

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SpectacularB t1_iycwh6h wrote

Read the series, now I don't care about it. Never watched the show, it's been too long and we should all stop caring about something that won't happen

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DevilMasterKING t1_iyd647k wrote

His fans are allowed to be upset about it though, like everyone else has said. He's had atleast 11 years to write the book, I understand it takes time and everything but at this point, the chances of the series ever being finished is zero in my eyes

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TheNextBattalion t1_iyd7r9e wrote

Honestly, he simply moved on from it. Even before the show began. He's been writing a lot, even stuff extending this universe. Just... this epic doesn't seem to interest him as much. I think that for him, writing it is more work than fun. So it doesn't get done.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iyd94n4 wrote

It's gotta be hard to continue when the story was already "finished" by someone else.

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TheNextBattalion t1_iydnfhk wrote

I wouldn't go that far. It might be harder, but it might instead be easier. Motivation from seeing others screw up what you entrusted them with.

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yallscrazy t1_iydbf0w wrote

Why would HBO affect GRRMs ability to write an ending in any way at all?

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SAT0725 OP t1_iydqz36 wrote

Because he went from creating something entirely new to now having to write a story that someone else already told to all his fans. As a writer I can tell you that gets tricky.

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yallscrazy t1_iydw312 wrote

As a writer I can tell you that the TV show and Books are so different that a writer of GRRMs skill can still write a final book in under 8 years even if the show's ending had the same main plot points as the book's. You can make a triangle that looks entirely different from another triangle, it's not difficult, Shakespeare and every other Renaissance writer didnt seem to have any trouble with it. Furthermore...... he knew this was happening so should have, or did, plan for this exact thing.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iydy3un wrote

> it's not difficult

Sure, it's easy! That's why there are millions of writers out there as successful as George R.R. Martin, right?

If a fraction of the fans who complain about Martin had been writing on their own these past eight years we'd have a lot more to read.

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avid-book-reader t1_iyeispt wrote

Another factor to keep in mind is that GRRM apparently uses an old as balls word processor from the late '80s called WordStar 4.0 and just refuses to switch to a modern one. I can't imagine that it's easy to write novels on a piece of software that's been around since the Reagan Administration.

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CarCrashRhetoric t1_iyd52sa wrote

I mean, LJ Smith got pushed out of her own property by the CW because the CW wanted a different ending for the characters than the one she was going to write.

She still finished her story the way she wanted, but it’s legally fan fiction. (Fuck the CW)

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BookishBitching t1_iyer2ca wrote

He told them the ending. He's mad everyone hated the ending, and that's why he's never, ever going to finish the series. (There can definitely be arguments here that the ending was fine but the buildup wasn't there, which I could agree with, but I went from being a superfan to not giving one single solitary rat-infested shit.) I haven't watched the new show and won't.

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SanityBleeds t1_iyd0qmu wrote

I'm still entirely of the opinion that he was a fair ways through Winds of Winter, dragging along as has become the norm for him, but after the backlash from the HBO series ending, based heavily on the notes and plans he was contractually obligated to give to HBO in the event of his passing before the series ended, he has changed direction significantly and rethought much of his end game and the necessary leadup to it.

At this point, coming up on 4 years since the HBO series ended, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't scrap a large majority of the story he supposedly already wrote and started off almost from scratch. The idea that after a decade of false-promises and he's only finished 3/4 of the book sounds like more BS from him. I would say he doesn't owe readers anything, but the amount of BS he's been feeding people for over a decade about how far along he is, when he thinks it'll be complete, and how much he claims to be working on it need to stop.

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somethingsomethingoo t1_iydbmll wrote

I have a theory that he gave HBO the ending he intended to write and then when he saw the backlash to the ending he started dragging his feet on finishing the book, either to change it or just because he isn’t ever intending to finish it.

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tvp61196 t1_iye461m wrote

Most people don't seem to understand than no human being has EVER has as much pressure to release a quality book as GRRM has on him. That pressure has cooled a bit over the past few years, but it's still vastly more than any of us will experience. That would fuck with anybody.

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SAT0725 OP t1_iye7jhw wrote

Also, at this point it's not like he HAS to write anything. He could just retire and live his wealthy lifestyle in ease till he dies at this point. The only incentive to write is for himself.

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